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| marine(uc) |
 Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:02 am Post subject: the universe is completely determined |
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Forum Freshman
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 17
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I first had this idea when i was about 6, that everything will happenin in complete order, and i want to know if you guys think my theory is correct.
okay so my idea is that if i went back 5 years, that everything would completely play out the exact same (if i was watching invisibly making no interactions at all in the universe in any way). because it would be like recording my life and watching it nothing would change because the old me from 5 years ago wouldn't have any different thoughts. because in the end what we do is based on the world around us and how our mind reacts to it, and there would be no way with no changes in the universe that i would get new thoughts.
now lets just say im correct and yah, me 5 years ago doesnt do a single thing different. or anybody for that matter. wouldn't that mean that just since our thoughts and actions don't just randomly get switched, that our entire life is pre-determined and like going in the past, the future would play out the exact way it's going to play out??
Now i had gotten into this with myself and thought, if everything is going to happen the same.. whats the point in doin anythin, its already gonna be chosen
BUT you can't get into that line of thought, because even thought it is chosen.. it doesn't matter, it's still you choosing them. and this future is based on what you do. You can't just sit around thinking it will be done for you, or you won't do anythin and that'd be future... i just try not to think about this theory lol.
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition |
| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:07 am Post subject: |
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The Doctor
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 3317
Location: England, UK.
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There is more than one time dimension.
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Last edited by 425 Chaotic Requisition on Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| marine(uc) |
| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 19 Jul 2008
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition wrote: |
| There is mroe than one time dimension. |
Okay, every dimension has it's own pre-determination.
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to discover is to create. |
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| BumFluff |
| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 06 Mar 2008
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This has been brought up before when theories of time travel started to appear. The question of if you went back in time and killed your parents then you couldn't be born has lead ot this theory that you mentioned as well as the theory of multiple universes.
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"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" - Bertrand Russell |
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| Dlrow |
| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:56 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 183
Location: Uncertain
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A simple test to see if everything is absolutley determined is as follows;
'slow' yourself down and get your mind to focus alot on one action, for instance - clenching your fist into a ball. Now look at your fist and tell yourself that you will open your fist in 5 seconds (as a measurment of your free choice).
So here we have a 'predetermined' plan of action but it was actually created by you.
During those 5 seconds you had the same ammount of 'free will' to open it before the 5 seconds was up or to hold the fist longer than the 5 seconds.
Ofcourse, due to the natural laws of physics and nature your hand will open eventually but for certain we do (as humans especially) have a large ammount of power over the determination of what we can naturally effect..
It seems 'free will' or 'choice' is a natural development in the mind given to life, humans in particular have a large ammount of control over one's own actions yet one is bound to the physical laws she/he is part of..
Although we have a choice to think about having ten arms we do not have the choice to actually have ten arms as we were not born that way  .
Sometimes we are phyiscally caught up in the wheel of time, seeming like we have no choices because we are thinking so fast.. but if you slow things down you can find yourself in a state of indecision where it is 'you' or 'i' alone who can determine the action/s to come.
But for sure - what is done is done. |
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| BumFluff |
| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:44 am Post subject: |
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Forum Senior
Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Canada
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| Dlrow wrote: |
A simple test to see if everything is absolutley determined is as follows;
'slow' yourself down and get your mind to focus alot on one action, for instance - clenching your fist into a ball. Now look at your fist and tell yourself that you will open your fist in 5 seconds (as a measurment of your free choice).
So here we have a 'predetermined' plan of action but it was actually created by you.
During those 5 seconds you had the same ammount of 'free will' to open it before the 5 seconds was up or to hold the fist longer than the 5 seconds.
Ofcourse, due to the natural laws of physics and nature your hand will open eventually but for certain we do (as humans especially) have a large ammount of power over the determination of what we can naturally effect..
It seems 'free will' or 'choice' is a natural development in the mind given to life, humans in particular have a large ammount of control over one's own actions yet one is bound to the physical laws she/he is part of..
Although we have a choice to think about having ten arms we do not have the choice to actually have ten arms as we were not born that way .
Sometimes we are phyiscally caught up in the wheel of time, seeming like we have no choices because we are thinking so fast.. but if you slow things down you can find yourself in a state of indecision where it is 'you' or 'i' alone who can determine the action/s to come.
But for sure - what is done is done. |
If everything is predetermined then there is no way you could do a test to test your free will because in a determined universe your test to test your free will has already been determined. Otherwise, it has already been written in the code of time what will happen during the test and it has already been determined what will occur at the outcome. You just have to follow along like good little slaves and do whatever time tells you to do without even knowing it.
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"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" - Bertrand Russell |
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| piok_opze |
| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Freshman
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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i kinda dig into the 'determined' universe too,,,
its hard to say whether free will exists or not until the complexities of the only place know to enforce it is understood: Brain
personally, the day true Artificial intelligence begins, would be the day you can plausibly question the existence/lack of free will |
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| Ophiolite |
| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: |
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Forum Radioactive Isotope
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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Location: Scotland
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I feel compelled to say that there is no such thing as predetermination.
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The Universe is not only weirder than we imagine it is weirder than we can imagine. J.B.S.Haldane. |
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| randynewman666 |
| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: Re: the universe is completely determined |
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Forum Freshman
Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 14
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| marine(uc) wrote: |
I first had this idea when i was about 6, that everything will happenin in complete order, and i want to know if you guys think my theory is correct.
okay so my idea is that if i went back 5 years, that everything would completely play out the exact same (if i was watching invisibly making no interactions at all in the universe in any way). because it would be like recording my life and watching it nothing would change because the old me from 5 years ago wouldn't have any different thoughts. because in the end what we do is based on the world around us and how our mind reacts to it, and there would be no way with no changes in the universe that i would get new thoughts.
now lets just say im correct and yah, me 5 years ago doesnt do a single thing different. or anybody for that matter. wouldn't that mean that just since our thoughts and actions don't just randomly get switched, that our entire life is pre-determined and like going in the past, the future would play out the exact way it's going to play out??
Now i had gotten into this with myself and thought, if everything is going to happen the same.. whats the point in doin anythin, its already gonna be chosen
BUT you can't get into that line of thought, because even thought it is chosen.. it doesn't matter, it's still you choosing them. and this future is based on what you do. You can't just sit around thinking it will be done for you, or you won't do anythin and that'd be future... i just try not to think about this theory lol. |
Well on the psychological level Frued did have a theory about this, I forget what its called. He suggested that every thought, every action is the product of your past, basicly, freewill doesnt exist. I think it is true for some people who live in a constant state of thought and reaction, but theres a way out of that. You can step back and observe your conditioned mind structure through a state of quiet minded, non judging awarness. This way you have the ability to step back and observe your reactions to situations, automatic unconscious thoughts, emotions instead of being a complete product of them. I think this is the way of freewill. |
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| portcontrol7 |
| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: Re: the universe is completely determined |
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Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Posts: 57
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| marine(uc) wrote: |
| Now i had gotten into this with myself and thought, if everything is going to happen the same.. whats the point in doin anythin, its already gonna be chosen |
Nihilism does not necessarily follow determinism. Combined they form fatalism, the belief that we have no control over our future.
This from wiki on Spinoza:
"Spinoza was a thoroughgoing determinist who held that absolutely everything that happens occurs through the operation of necessity. For him, even human behaviour is fully determined, with freedom being our capacity to know we are determined and to understand why we act as we do. So freedom is not the possibility to say "no" to what happens to us but the possibility to say "yes" and fully understand why things should necessarily happen that way."
Maybe this article is something you'll enjoy Marine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism
Good luck on your metaphysical pursuit! 
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"The most monstrous effect of the indoctrination of the young by religion, is not that they are mislead, but are trained to mislead themselves." - Me |
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| Gijs |
| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Forum Freshman
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 14
Location: the netherlands
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition wrote: |
| There is more than one time dimension. |
There is no proof for that hypotheses, but most scientists who write in popular sciense magazines think it could exist. And as far as I know it could exist. That doesn`t mean it is a reality.
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| Vid P |
| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 29 Aug 2008
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Location: Sydney, Australia
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Id like to say no (as i hate to believe that choices that i have made were pre-empted) but based on my experiences with astrology and its accuracy i would have to say yes. 
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| mitchellmckain |
| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 1970
Location: Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
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| marine(uc) wrote: |
| 425 Chaotic Requisition wrote: |
| There is mroe than one time dimension. |
Okay, every dimension has it's own pre-determination. |
Physics certainly disagrees with you and there are even arguments that this is impossible.
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime wrote: |
Max Tegmark expands on the preceding argument in the following anthropic manner.[5] If the number of time dimensions differed from 1, the behavior of physical systems could not be predicted reliably from knowledge of the relevant partial differential equations. In such a universe, intelligent life capable of manipulating technology could not emerge. In addition, Tegmark maintains that protons and electrons would be unstable in a universe with more than one time dimension, as they can decay into more massive particles (this is not a problem if the temperature is sufficiently low). If N>3, Ehrenfest's above argument holds; atoms as we know them (and probably more complex structures as well) could not exist. If N<3, gravitation of any kind becomes problematic, and the universe is probably too simple to contain observers. For example, nerves must intersect and cannot overlap.
In general, it is not clear how physical laws could operate if the number of time dimensions T differed from 1. If T>1, individual subatomic particles, which decay after a fixed period, would not have much predictability, because time-like geodesics would not be necessarily maximal.[6] N=1 and T=3 has the peculiar property that that the speed of light in a vacuum is a lower bound on the velocity of matter. Hence anthropic arguments rule out all cases except 3 spatial and 1 temporal dimensions—the description of the world in which we live. |
What is perhaps more relevant to the original topic of this thread is that even though quantum physics utterly demolishes determinism there is one interpretation that restores the mathematical determination of quantum physics. This is Everett's Many Worlds interpretation. The point is that in order to restore the mathematical determinism to modern physics you have to posit that uncountable new universes are born every second. But turned around this is exactly how we view a non-deterministic universe, where at every point in time there is a branching into all the very real possibible futures, and thus I believe that Everrett's Many Worlds interpretation is really a final proof that the deterministic world view is utterly dead.
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| DecemX |
| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 07 Sep 2008
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I think if you were to go back in time, the past would play out the same no matter what. There wouldn't be a choice for someone to do something different. Do you sit around thinking about not going to work, not simply to rest, but to throw off an invisible-yet-present future self who has you under the microscope?
The decisions we make (even the tough ones) would be made the same. People tend to say, "If I could go back in time, I'd change that". But the question you've stated isn't whether they want to change their past, simply to see if you would make the same decision under the same circumstances. |
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| Jon not Ron |
| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 10 Aug 2008
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i think there would have to be endless combinations that time could play out
you would go back to the time you wanted and then your life would just start right there
and then your life would just follow one of the paths gradualy spreading away from your previos one like a tree the new life would be almost the same at first and then gradualy you would make different desicions and your life would change and be different |
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