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| cambece |
 Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:43 am Post subject: tai chi |
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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Is there any scientific evidence that explain (if any) the affects of tai chi and other things related to the idea of chi (like accupuncture)?
JA Cambece
JA Cambece Law Office |
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| Hermes |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:57 am Post subject: Re: tai chi |
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| While there may be some scientific evidence, Qi (Chi) is not modeled on science. Science is a western notion. Chinese has its own metaphysics. To truly understand the relationship of Qi to nature, it is important to analyze it within the context of the metaphysics in which it was created and has meaning. |
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| DaBOB |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 30 Jun 2006
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Talk to a shaolin monk. 
If I get the money I am going to be one... maybe.
_________________
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." -- John 8:32
"The best mind-altering drug is truth. -Lily Tomlin
I claim to be a passionate seeker after the truth, which is but another name for God." -Gandhi
"...only try to realize the truth. There is no spoon." -Spoon boy |
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| Jeremyhfht |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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See, funny thing, there is a scientific explanation. A number of them, in fact. The psychological ones, which are most apparent, the biology ones, which are rarely used, and the more "paranormal" ones, that still have some scientific backing. The most popular one with me right now is that brain waves can mess with EM fields (hence, gravitational bonds between matter). I'd explain, but my hands are bothering me, so you can do the research yourself. Personally, with most cases, I find people lean towards the psychological and placebo effect reasons. But there are some that fit the latter explanation. As for pressure points, I've used them myself to cure my own neck pain and some other problems people are having. I suggest you research on what pressure points really are to understand them, as they're not MOVIE style pressure points (martial arts movies tend to = veeerrrrryyyy little reality. Remember that).
As for accupuncture, medical scientists are still out with the jury on that one. But going by Chi/Ki explanations, one could just as easily improve and fix circulatory systems just by channeling energy through the hands and into the others body to solve the issue. Thus, the needles are completely unneeded.
Personally, I don't really enjoy going completely along with old philosophies and beliefs about it. I prefer science and explanations as opposed to it just being, as such, I don't suggest you go to a Shaolin monk or anything, as monks tend to focus on the spiritual aspects, not scientific. At least as far as I know. Also, if the brain wave and EM field/matter theory is correct, then ancient people WERE correct in saying that it binds the universe together. Since, technically, being a theory of gravity, it does! Hahahaha |
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| Hermes |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremyhfht wrote: |
| As for pressure points, I've used them myself to cure my own neck pain and some other problems people are having. I suggest you research on what pressure points really are to understand them, as they're not MOVIE style pressure points (martial arts movies tend to = veeerrrrryyyy little reality. Remember that). |
I do not know much about how they are portrayed in the movies, but the notion that I have sometimes seen in the movies that martial artists are also commonly practitioners of medicine is valid. They use the same principles.
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| As for accupuncture, medical scientists are still out with the jury on that one. But going by Chi/Ki explanations, |
Ki is a Japanese spelling. Chi is an English spelling. Qi is a Chinese spelling.
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| one could just as easily improve and fix circulatory systems just by channeling energy through the hands and into the others body to solve the issue. Thus, the needles are completely unneeded. |
Yes. I think that acupuncture, which I do, is Qi manipulation for those with limited skill. I have witnessed on many occasions practitioners of Qi Gong achieve great effect without needles.
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| I don't suggest you go to a Shaolin monk |
I suspect that he was alluding to the fact that the Shaolin temple, which I have visited, is becoming a popular place for westerners to study martial arts.
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| Also, if the brain wave and EM field/matter theory is correct, then ancient people WERE correct in saying that it binds the universe together. Since, technically, being a theory of gravity, it does! Hahahaha |
Excellent observation. |
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| Jeremyhfht |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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I know the difference between the spelling of Chi/Qi, but I'm not Chinese, so for me it doesn't matter too much unless you wish to be technical. I'm writing to add a final note: There are stories floating around on the internet, and studies made by medical people, about strange "effects" of Tai Chi. One, I recall, being someone regrowing a section of bone in his leg (although this could possibly have an alternative explanation). Unfortunately I have no links, and I'm too lazy to look them up, but you can do so yourself instead of trusting my word on it. Haha
EDIT: Also, Chinese/Japanese concepts vary. Chi tends to be more medative, and Ki tends to be more aggressive (at least from what I've read/heard so far). There are differences in spelling for a reason, hence why I didn't limit it to one. Sorry for the confusion. |
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| Hermes |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremyhfht wrote: |
| EDIT: Also, Chinese/Japanese concepts vary. |
Correct.
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| Chi tends to be more medative, and Ki tends to be more aggressive (at least from what I've read/heard so far). |
This does not seem to be a very realistic differentiation to me.
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| There are differences in spelling for a reason, hence why I didn't limit it to one. Sorry for the confusion. |
Yes, there is a reason. Chinese and Japanese are very different languages, and so naturally pronounce the words differently. As well, as you suggested, these cultures are very different, and so have a somewhat different understanding of the nature of Qi/Ki. |
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| Jeremyhfht |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, the difference WAS a bit clear cut, but try to look at it realistically as opposed to my crappy explanation. In Japanese culture especially, Ki is shown to be a tool used for fighting rather than something medative and restful. I'm mostly referring to animation, but it's also present in real-life japanese culture. I do believe this is also present in japanese fighting styles as well, but I have no evidence for that claim, but I'll try to hunt up some links tomorrow. |
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| DaBOB |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Oh ya sorry, you were looking for "scientific" evidence. The reason I suggested shaolin is because they could give you observable evidence. Whether it is explainable or not.
I wouldn't discredit movies so fast, although there definitely are some that over do it. I have been hit, not very hard, in a spot on my wrist and could not move my hand for an hour. Although I much prefer the idea of using pressure points for healing.
There have been experiments to try to show how a pressure point is diferent from the rest of the body. Many of which are successful. Also there is evidence that through energy (qi) work certain hormones are released and blood vessels can dilate or contract etc. Whether it is chi or some other force, the stuff does work.
_________________
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." -- John 8:32
"The best mind-altering drug is truth. -Lily Tomlin
I claim to be a passionate seeker after the truth, which is but another name for God." -Gandhi
"...only try to realize the truth. There is no spoon." -Spoon boy |
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| Hermes |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 09 Aug 2005
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| Jeremyhfht wrote: |
| In Japanese culture especially, Ki is shown to be a tool used for fighting rather than something medative and restful. |
This is not at all true. The word Ki permeates the Japanese language, and has no more use in fighting than in anything else. That being said, its major prevalence means that it does have a lot of significance in fighting, as well as in everything else, such as meditation. |
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| That Rascal Puff |
| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Haven't heard any mention of the biologically defined 'nervous system' in this discussion. There's a lot of electro-chemical stimulation of the nervous system tributaries - brachiating into the rest of the body from the brain and spine - going on with acupressure and acupuncture; there are details on this presently unknown to me. Western science was largely persuaded to accept acupressure and acupuncture due to it's relationship with, influence on and control of the nervous system.
One of the generalized meanings of 'Qi' is energy distributed throughout the nervous system (network) proper, from neurological origins; specifically, the brain (importantly stimulated by oxygen and breathing techniques. In some translations 'Chi' refers to breath and/or cerebro-spinal fluid) - apparently having main sub stations at junctures accomodating stimulation of various parts of the entire system, especially via the bottoms of the feet and hands, many locations on the ear and tongue. The principles of Asian medicine and martial arts frequently dovetail on these issues- martial arts of itself is often about healing as well as impacting the nervous system to disable or handicap an adversary.
Anesthesia is frequently effected without drugs, via the application of acupressure and acupuncture. There are dramatic proofs of this, including open heart surgery, where the patients remain conscious but suffer no pain (It's found to work to various degrees on different individuals.). After decades of rejection, the AMA finally capitulated with these facts, resulting in the popular applications of Eastern medicine in Western Schools.
Good thread. (Se se. - Thank you.) |
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| cambece |
| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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Does anyone have any links to sites that have clips or mentions of "observable evidence"?
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JA Cambece
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| Hermes |
| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| That Rascal Puff wrote: |
| One of the generalized meanings of 'Qi' is energy distributed throughout the nervous system (network) proper, |
I think that you will not find a Chinese medical book on Qi that mentions Qi in the context of the nervous system.
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| In some translations 'Chi' refers to breath |
There are many types of Qi. Breath is certainly one of them. |
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| DaBOB |
| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006
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Location: Arsia Mons, Mars
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I was recently informed of a TV show on the BBC called Mind, Body and Kick Ass Moves. Look it up, it has lots of great stuff.
_________________
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." -- John 8:32
"The best mind-altering drug is truth. -Lily Tomlin
I claim to be a passionate seeker after the truth, which is but another name for God." -Gandhi
"...only try to realize the truth. There is no spoon." -Spoon boy |
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| jacques |
| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 21 Aug 2006
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I always assumed that accupuncture works by disrupting the nervous system. I don't know very much about it i'm afraid, but i would assume that the magnetic field of a metal needle (if not it's physical presence) would disrupt or propagate nervous signals. This would certainly explain the proven ability of accupuncture to ease pain.
I don't know whether any studies have been done into this. I can't remember whether it's an idea that i came up with, or one that i saw somewhere else. |
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