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| Why did science progress so much in western Europe? |
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| icewendigo |
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: Why did science progress so much in western Europe? |
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Almost every invention and scientific breakthroughs were made in western europe and later on in the US after the dark ages. Why?
1- What social factors in particular and what other factors(political, economical, etc) allowed science and its application to progress so fast after the dark ages in western civilization (Italy, France, Germany, England and later on in the US) and in particular in the 20th century?
2- a) I can guess Religion had a big role to play but I wonder in what way?
b) China had I think a somewhat non religious society (compared to strict monotheist no questions asked religion) and yet baring a some inovation remained relatively idle, while in Europe a lot of common people were still devout church going christians even in early 20th century.
3- Why were people around the world in 1920 were still living like europeans in 1400 or something, and were not at the 1870 level of education and social structure?
4- For most of the 20th century Japan appears to be comparable to western nations and US, relatively secular, education, industrialized, yet until the end of the 20th century when they really started to kick a.s in some areas they dont appear to have made many breakthroughs that I am aware of (or am I ill informed)? They appeared to have mastered the art of adapting and improving existing technology making it better than those that had invented it, but I dont know how many new discoveries they have made in the 20th century? Why do you think this is? |
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| Cat1981(England) |
| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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I would guess that with european countries being at war almost constantly for a thousand years and with no single country having a major population advantage, technology would be one way to get the upperhand.
Europe also has a very kind climate compared to asia and africa which would help with disease and food production which gave us (overall) more free time.
Also we have been very lucky, if u took out a handful of people from european history i think things would have be very different for us.
MOD Edit - second post merged.
All the above also applies to the united states during the last century, particularly during the cold war. |
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| leohopkins |
| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:56 am Post subject: |
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erm..........because of the wars.
(And also because we didnt live in mud huts during the 19th or 20th centuries)
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| icewendigo |
| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| being at war almost constantly |
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| erm..........because of the wars. |
Thanks for sharing your views
I wonder the extent to which war was instrumental in Coppernicus' study of the solar system, or in Newton's development of calculus and theories on gravity, the discoveries of batteries, magnetism, studies on light with prisms, electicity, Curie's radioactivity, Tesla and Edisons various application of electricity.
I agree that war have instumentalised discoveries and has pushed R&D but when you consider all discoveries since the middle ages, to me war appears to have played a minor role. |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Because it's cold in the winter. You have to do something to take your mind off it, whereas on coconut beaches full of scantily clad young things, one does simply not have the time to perform 300 2hour experiments watching bacteria to see which one dominates the dish...
On a more serious note, 'neccessity is the mother of invention' - many wartime inventions are simply not 'publicised' for obvious reasons,
Nuc-u-lar [I believe that's the new way..] technology, the Jet engine, the space race, radar, digital electronics, programmable computers, satelite communications, mobile phones [yes, that's right, mobile phones] Global Positioning satelites, space travel, Microwave Ovens, - These were ALL 'seeded' in wartime - Now peactime... . . Mcdonalds ? is that er an invention? |
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| Cat1981(England) |
| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I wonder the extent to which war was instrumental in Coppernicus' study of the solar system, or in Newton's development of calculus and theories on gravity, the discoveries of batteries, magnetism, studies on light with prisms, electicity, Curie's radioactivity, Tesla and Edisons various application of electricity. |
I don't think war did have a impact on the above, but those people lived in society's which one way or another could support them while they made their experiments and their discovery's.
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| Mcdonalds ? is that er an invention? |
Fastfood was an invented economic market, which is something we should also consider here.
After all is't that partly what the cold war was about ?
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| I can guess Religion had a big role to play but I wonder in what way? |
Religious institutions also invested money to prove that god was a fact.
And funded crusades to find religious artifacts which helped expand are world as we knew it then.
Last edited by Cat1981(England) on Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| vulture |
| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Icewendigo
War in Europe (and other factors) did have a lot to do with technological and scientific development in Europe, but the development was not necessarily because of war. Other factors were geography, plague and the rise of Islam. Also, in truth, this is so complex it is probably more honest to say that there were thousands of other factors.
There are some obvious instances when war has contributed directly and I am sure that you are aware of them. Such as the use of gun powder, the rise of the cannon, Leonardo da Vinci's inventions (even though they weren't used). However, I believe that the greatest impact of European's wars was the need for nations to remain competitive to stay in the game. I can highly recommend the book Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond.
This book also mentions the issue of Europe's fractured geography. Since it consists of a combination of penisulas, islands, and mountain ranges there are a lot of military geographic choke points. These make areas more defendable and therefore, more difficult to unify and control over a long period. Hence, why no one was ever able to unify the whole of Europe. In comparison China is geographically easier to unify. China saw itself as the centre of the universe. It frequently felt no need to take notice of the rest of the world for long periods, because it had long periods free of conflict with its neighbours. Hence, there was more competition in Europe. Even during peace, European rulers would compete to have grander building, greater artist, more curiosities. This led to resources being spent on artists, designers, engineers, builders etc.
Wars, plague and politics also frequently shook the foundations of European nations, thereby removing cultural stagnation, and allowing differences in ideas to flourish. It can even be argued by the cynical that to some degree the Protestant Reformation came about because of the influence of politics upon the Pope. This caused him to take actions, such as the selling of indulgences, which ignited the Reformation. Also, by killing large number of peasants plague and war raised their value. Especially in England, this allowed them to demand higher wages and greater mobility, and consequently weakening the Feudal system.
The rise of Protestantism, allowed the growth of divergent thinking. It became harder to control ideas. It even played a role in the development of the printing press in order to spread the word of God. Catholisim held that an individual comes to God through the intercession of the priest, whereas with Protestantism the individual can approach God directly. Therefore the Protestant requires the word of God, the Bible. Protestants also had a great need to read so that they could understand the Bible. Therefore, there is the need for more schooling. Many Catholic nations in Europe did stagnate after the Reformation, part of this (again this is complex and there was more than one cause) is because the Catholic church frequently banned books as heretical, which impeaded the flow and development of knowledge in those nations.
So what? I can here you say. Well, for instance, in China time pieces were mere curiosities primarily for the emperor with no relevance to the general population. In Europe the ability of the peasant to rise socially and economically, and the creation of a middle class, allowed such curiosities to be purchased by them. Indeed, European middle classes looked to their rulers for the fashions of the day. If the King had it, then I should try and get one too even if it is inferior to the King's. The making of watches requires fine workmanship and fine tolerances, but as we grow older our eyes frequently deteriorate, so the development of magnification lenses and eye glasses were critical to extending the working life of talented watch makers. The ability to make precision parts led to the ability to make other fine instrument that were crucial in the study of science. For instance the discovery of atomic weight.
The rise of Islam cutting off the trade routes to the East motivated western europe to find alternative routes to the East. This and again religious differneces helped to create the naval arms race driven by England, Holland, Spain and Portugal. This more inventions, and more resources were spent.
In the end it was like snow ball rolling down hill. The more information there is, there is more that can be learned, and there is more for the curious to discover. The more that differences of opinion and ideas are allowed to flourish the more people are prepared to ask why and question current ideas. Once an idea has been developed and spread there is no putting the genie back into the bottle. Knowledge builds and builds upon itself. Those that are prepared to be opened minded and to learn will learn more. Societies that are not prepared to question the status quo will tend to stagnate. This is why the incursion of religion into science is not a good idea. Science is about asking questions, religion is about belief. It is highly ironic that todays progress in science owes so much to Martin Luther, the man who was prepared to question the authority of the Roman Catholic church.
When the first stone tool implement was developed by man, I believe that it remained unchange for nearly a million years, but when the design did change the time between changes decreased, and continued to decrease in almost and exponential fashion, with some bottle necks along the way. I do not know what the current estimate is, but I do know that it is estimated that the sum of the world's knowledge now doubles every few years, or something like that. Our biggest problem is knowing what is already known. This is where the internets ability to link information and people together can be a god send. It is becoming easier to combine people and ideas, especially across disciplines. This allows what on the surface appear to be unrelated discorveries to be combined. We will sure need this if we are to solve the problems that are facing us now. |
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| Cat1981(England) |
| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Ophiolite |
| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: |
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I would echo Cat's remarks vulture - that was a well structured, interesting post.
As a small aside I would note in respect of your comment:
| vulture wrote: |
| I do not know what the current estimate is, but I do know that it is estimated that the sum of the world's knowledge now doubles every few years, or something like that. |
I am sure that the amount of data doubles every few years. I am less certain that this is true of our knowledge.  |
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| vulture |
| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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Touch'e Ophiolite, touch'e. How correct you are? It is probably even worse if we consider the growth of wisdom.
Data isn't information, information isn't knowledge, knowledge isn't understanding, and understanding isn't wisdom. |
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| silkworm |
| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:08 am Post subject: |
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Pre World War 1 Germany was a very special place for science (most especially for physics, chemistry, and engineering), and it apparently progressed even further because Germany mobilized twice (before the German scientists emigrated to the US to continue here).
I wish we'd check out that period of Germany and perhaps find something to imitate.
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| charles brough |
| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Why did science progress so much in western Europe? |
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| icewendigo wrote: |
Almost every invention and scientific breakthroughs were made in western europe and later on in the US after the dark ages. Why?
You are asking the right questions!!! It amazes me how few people do---even social scientists because the ups and downs of human culture have been so unexplainable that they gave up and just claimed that there is no such thing as a civilizatioin or even a "society" and that culture just switch around. . .
I've worked on the answers for a long time and found out that every civilization goes through a pattern of beginning, growing powerful and relatively scientific, then slipping back and finally dieing---llike the Egyptian and Babylonian civilizations did. There are a number of processes going on to cause that and the picture is a little complicated to explain in a mere few paragraphs here. You can, however, download it at
http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
Read up, then, and you will be able to understand the whole process and be better informed on what is going on in the world than anyone else.
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) China had I think a somewhat non religious society (compared to strict monotheist no questions asked religion) and yet baring a some inovation remained relatively idle, while in Europe a lot of common people were still devout church going christians even in early 20th century.
This is a common mistake. The social science establishment is virtually unaware of the religion of China! It was and still is very religious. The main religion is ancestor worhip and every home has a family religious shrine. Scholars are largely unaware of this because few see these shrines. Chinese do not invite you into their homes. They entertain you in resturants because their homes are shrines to their ancestors. Even Buddhism, Taoism and Confusionism are just Chinese cults, not the real religion of China. The Liondancing, burning paper money, Chinese opera are all ways to playcate the ancestor spirits they believe hover around periodically. They also have some gods which they have idols for and which they burn joss sticks for and bow to. Some of these idols have many arms and heads. But the Chinese do not know all this is a religion. To them it is just "being Chinese."
charles
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| jjg |
| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Because of the Catholic Church. |
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| charles brough |
| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, you are right---the Catholic Church. Their missionaries tried to convert the Chinese leaders by cow towing to the statist part of their religion---thinking it was secular! They were never invited into the homes because their homes were shrines to their ancestors! So, they saw Buddhis, Taoist and Confusian clubs and assumed that was their religion!
charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
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| jopiruizen |
| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Wow this is a brilliant topic.. nice..
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