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| Perfect |
 Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 11:08 am Post subject: This and that. |
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On Probation
Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 161
Location: The tip of your tongue
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The concept of western classical music has evolved for hundreds of year’s trough baroque, classicism, romanticism, impressionism etc. Yet the fundamentals that form the romantic nocturnes and the impressionistic preludes have maintained the most basic facets and codes throughout the years.
One could from this form the idea that the most basic disciplines of composition are a sinecure for those who understand it. That the construct of rules are forever consistent.
And unlike the relativity theorists in mathematics are subsumed into crackpots, the rules of music are not stigmatized when facing alteration. Though, the universal codes differ drastically in the two since sound is given an abstract definition.
Think of a scale, 12 tonal half-steps included, all within the octave. Now, be it mixolydian, dorian or simply a major scale – the fundamental key notes, their meanings and the atmosphere is subconsciously present in us all. Listen trough an descending harmonic scale and think of ‘India’ near the upper tonic.
What if scales were not divided to 12 half-steps and to, for example, 57 half-steps?
What effect would that had had in the facet of classical music?
Elitism, greater gaps and a folk culture.
Have you noticed how the interval minor second is truly irritating on the ear?
Did you know that every dominant (fifth) does not hold a perfect pitch in the piano?
The quint is altered so the tune does not sound, well… crappy.
The reason I do not remember, but it is intriguing.
The frequencies have been studied and conclusions have been drawn on how the ear works, hence the molded architecture (well, not because of the studies, it was noted way before studies).
For example: I identify suspended chords as a part of the lead that covets the end of an composition, as well as imagining shades of dark blue and purple (from notes). Music/Color synergy in identifying, for example, intervals: the major third is green.
Abstract concepts offer the most, and we are ingraining. Also, techno is not progressing and Schönberg was a fuck up (nah, but I dislike his methods).
The abstract state of sound transforms the associative nature of music within the rules, and at the same time music is ultimately culturally aware. When certain emotional states residing in an individual are connected to certain types of music, the universality of music becomes inconsistent.
The aspects of associative music vary greatly as there is an impossible to figure out arrangement of characters practicing and participating in the medium.
Different aptitudes, skills, capabilities and being too wicked for ones culture and surroundings.
Think of the Satan worshipping fucktard who listens to Bach’s: Toccata & Fugue never realizing, worse, never experiencing the praise for God. One does not have to follow the paths that the artist followed – concretely, but one has to realize what brought the delicate constructs, the masterpieces alive, as well as the influential features. Passio Secundum Matthaeum tells the tale of... exactly, it is an aspect of importance to be aware of it. This was an example on how the ingrained rules hold meanings and mold to contradict the whole premise of the composition.
Carmina Burana is ruined. |
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| water |
| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Masters Degree
Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 500
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I am only a laywoman in matters of music theory, but, to my surprise, I can actually relate to some of the theoretical concepts.
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| The abstract state of sound transforms the associative nature of music within the rules, and at the same time music is ultimately culturally aware. |
This holds true when there is only one music discourse present in a culture. In a multi-cultural setting, can we still speak of music being culturally aware – aware of whose culture, and to whom is such music comprehensible? I don't think so.
The appeal of European classical music (by "classical" I don't mean the music of that period per se, but the baroque, classical, romantic etc.) is that it is like a language one can learn, and communicate in it. In contrast, popular multi-cultural music, however, is such that while maybe impressive to my ear, I cannot come up with any conclusive understanding of it. Or, to use another metaphor, while in classical music, one marvels and delights at the patterns in which the cloth is woven, and at the dress made of that cloth, -- in popular music, one is left to the texture of the cloth itself, barely seeing any patterns, and certainly not the dress. Honestly, I find a Britney Spears song more abstract than a Chopin nocturne, ah, it's beyond comparison.
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| When certain emotional states residing in an individual are connected to certain types of music, the universality of music becomes inconsistent. |
I take this happens because of a misdirected association between the emotional state and a music. For example, "I have been let down, therefore, I will listen to the 2nd mvt of Beethoven's 5th piano concerto / Radiohead's "Let down", as it reflects my state best." It is when music is listened to for non-musical reasons, that the universality of music becomes inconsistent.
I couldn't speculate about what goes on in the mind of the author of a music when this misdirection happens.
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The aspects of associative music vary greatly as there is an impossible to figure out arrangement of characters practicing and participating in the medium.
Different aptitudes, skills, capabilities and being too wicked for ones culture and surroundings. |
And then one finds oneself confounded by the apparent mystery of that music, never knowing what it means. It becomes unintelligible. (Why I can't stand jazz.)
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| Think of the Satan worshipping fucktard who listens to Bach’s: Toccata & Fugue never realizing, worse, never experiencing the praise for God. |
You mean BWV 565? It's a shame, how pompously they often play that toccata. No wonder one doesn't realize the praise of God in that – but much more of Satan. |
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| Perfect |
| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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On Probation
Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 161
Location: The tip of your tongue
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| This holds true when there is only one music discourse present in a culture. In a multi-cultural setting, can we still speak of music being culturally aware – aware of whose culture, and to whom is such music comprehensible? I don't think so. |
Nevermind any multi-cultural settings because the variety of patterns and different forms that define music are in themselves culturally defined. For example Sibelius has a greater meaning in the culture that molded and used him. And especially this African nation (the name I forgot) appoints cultural value to him for they used his piece as their national anthem.
Another example: Hindustani, indian music.
Western scale and the Indian scale differ like so: western and Indian both have the base value of 1 but when they have moved to 2, the passed notes have not been in sync.
According to tuning, they are not akin, which causes what you might call “a clash of cultures”.
And I’m not even bringing up the differences between harmony, the overall sounds that are used.
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| Honestly, I find a Britney Spears song more abstract than a Chopin nocturne, ah, it's beyond comparison. |
Stab me in the eyes rather than compare Chopin to that bimbo (eventhough one might find it ironic how Chopin was the most ‘pop’ of his time, a folk guy).
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I take this happens because of a misdirected association between the emotional state and a music. For example, "I have been let down, therefore, I will listen to the 2nd mvt of Beethoven's 5th piano concerto / Radiohead's "Let down", as it reflects my state best." It is when music is listened to for non-musical reasons, that the universality of music becomes inconsistent.
I couldn't speculate about what goes on in the mind of the author of a music when this misdirection happens. |
Misapprehended indeed. And it’s not when music is listened for the non-musical reasons. That is what everyone does, music has always been entertainment. But when music is created for non-musical reasons, I fucking loathe serialism, Hollywood cocksuckers dappling with the predestined formats and turn the ‘plenty of classical music is enjoyable’ into ‘plenty of it is boring’.
Have we learned to draw bridges between certain emotional drives and music, or is the emotional variety that resides in music universal?
Affectionism suggests that certain aspects, as in scales, intervals and themes all have their own grounds that mold the larger picture.
Though, renaissance and Descartes don’t hold up to scientific methods.
Still, think of the Chinese etc… different variations of the same basic motives.
And the authors are long dead, pedantic fucks, though, are piiiiiiissssssed. |
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| water |
| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Forum Masters Degree
Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 500
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Perfect,
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| This holds true when there is only one music discourse present in a culture. In a multi-cultural setting, can we still speak of music being culturally aware – aware of whose culture, and to whom is such music comprehensible? I don't think so. |
Nevermind any multi-cultural settings because the variety of patterns and different forms that define music are in themselves culturally defined. For example Sibelius has a greater meaning in the culture that molded and used him. And especially this African nation (the name I forgot) appoints cultural value to him for they used his piece as their national anthem.
Another example: Hindustani, indian music.
Western scale and the Indian scale differ like so: western and Indian both have the base value of 1 but when they have moved to 2, the passed notes have not been in sync.
According to tuning, they are not akin, which causes what you might call "a clash of cultures".
And I’m not even bringing up the differences between harmony, the overall sounds that are used. |
I am bound to misunderstand the music that comes from a culture foreign to mine. What to a Chinese may be a cheerful folk song, is to me the sheerest horror, and I imagine someone dying or some terrible thing happening. Or a Japanese love song, voice accompanied by that string instrument – that's like a metallic alien creature trying to get into my chest and rip me up.
I misunderstand. Music is not universal.
Now, with the mixing of cultures, and several musics present and mixed, I lose sight of what a music is or could be conveying, and it all becomes noise to me. I find myself bedazzled by the sound, and that's all there is to it.
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| (eventhough one might find it ironic how Chopin was the most ‘pop’ of his time, a folk guy). |
I think the term is "deceptively simple".
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| Misapprehended indeed. And it’s not when music is listened for the non-musical reasons. That is what everyone does, music has always been entertainment. |
I disagree. Listening to music can be entertaining, but does this make music to be entertainment?
Math can be entertaining, but it's not necessarily entertainment.
"Entertainment" is such a derogatory word; it supposes one does not perform an activity with studious rigor. I sit down, put on headphones and listen to a piece. I enjoy it. But I am also very concentrated (and tend to turn into a beast if someone disturbs me). That's hardly called entertainment.
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| But when music is created for non-musical reasons, I fucking loathe serialism, Hollywood cocksuckers dappling with the predestined formats and turn the ‘plenty of classical music is enjoyable’ into ‘plenty of it is boring’. |
I'm with you.
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Have we learned to draw bridges between certain emotional drives and music, or is the emotional variety that resides in music universal?
Affectionism suggests that certain aspects, as in scales, intervals and themes all have their own grounds that mold the larger picture. |
Good point.
Music certainly does not exist all by itself, as an abstract absolute, detached from our everyday life experience.
Is all music thematic? We are lead to believe so, and not rarely, the titles of pieces themselves suggest so. What would one think of the 4th mvt of Beethoven's 6th if one wouldn't know it's title -- "Gewitter - Sturm"? Would one still think of lightning, thunder and pouring rain?
The next question is then: Is all music mimetic? Serial music is hardly mimetic, I should think. Elevator music and techno are also not mimetic.
The pieces in Das wohltemperierete Klavier – are they mimetic?
How about sung music with a comprehensible text (not vocalises)? If you don't understand the text of a mass or an opera – can you listen to it at all, does it make any sense? I think that esp. in sung music, the mimetic nature of music becomes apparent.
I assume there are always two components in music: the mimetic content and the form. The two can be present in a piece in various ratios, and ideally, they function together. Serial music would thus be almost all form, and the mimetic content what arises from this form. Classical music has the two in an ideal ratio (thinking esp. of Beethoven's symphonies 5 and 6, for example). Popular music focuses a lot on the mimetic content, but little on the form.
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| And the authors are long dead, pedantic fucks, though, are piiiiiiissssssed. |
Which just goes to show that their conviction is that it is the author who has authority over his piece, to say what it is about and how it goes. As if a piece could not exist apart from the author. |
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| Perfect |
| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 11:28 am Post subject: |
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On Probation
Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 161
Location: The tip of your tongue
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| I misunderstand. Music is not universal |
Simply; music is universal since it is found on
every single part of the planet inhabited by humans. And music is culturally defined since the methods of forming music have evolved simultaneously within every one of these groupsm, all differing somewhat.
Like language.
I can speak to you in a different language and tell you to ‘fuck off’ and at the same time act as if I’m saying ‘nice to meet you’.
You realize the communicative process.
I’m in a hurry, I'm going to stroll.
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| Now, with the mixing of cultures, and several musics present and mixed, I lose sight of what a music is or could be conveying |
Don’t you fucking lie to me.
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| I disagree. Listening to music can be entertaining, but does this make music to be entertainment? |
In a way you’re right.
In another way, your brain is leaking.
Let’s see.
The level of deep concentration, dedication, devotion etc… that the composer has over his music is secondary. These mindsets that the musician has are conveyed to your mind and you create greater meanings to the medium.
These and other aesthetical and emotional aspects rise from music and change the whole facet of it.
Until you close your eyes and let yourself be entertained by it.
The process of creating music is very finely defined to lead into gathering interrest and into impressing.
The whole premise of music is to please (the ear) and to raise interest.
The two basic concepts of entertainment.
Secondly: Classical music is an occupation, or at least it was before the bars were lowered to allow faggots with guitars, the goddamn Ă¼berstars. It is unlike mathematics for it is purely imaginary, not concrete and allowed for extreme alterations.
I decide Pi is not 3.14, It shall be 7 from now on, you know?
Of course music is deeply connected with mathematics, but it is not comparable.
Music does not explain phenomena’s, it creates them, complements them – so to speak.
But, you’re right that there are some people who fuck it all up and go around creating the most terrible shit ever introduced to classical music – the more complicated and aleatorical the bigger your dick.
That was the scene in the 80's.
In a hurry, I won’t dive into this more deeply now.
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| he pieces in Das wohltemperierete Klavier – are they mimetic? |
I shall point at you with my erect penis and laugh.
*Hah, hah*
(I shall not translate the correct terminology now, Imma edit it later.)
Das wohltemperierete Klavier:
When they introduced the universal tuning in the seventeenth century and the octave was now divided into 12 correlative parts; voila, now scales could coexist and pieces could modulate.
Now, Das wohltemperierete Klavier is a series of piano music that Bach composed solely for the purpose of educating and benefiting the musical younglings (teens mostly).
24 preludes and fugues that include the quantum circle as their basis: The old testament of music.
It’s not truly ‘from the heart’, per se.
It is calculated to be a teaching tool for the new system, to introduce the quintum circle.
---
I shall reply to the rest when I get back, just wanted to touch your post before someone else might. |
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| water |
| Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Forum Masters Degree
Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 500
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| In expectation of your extended reply, avaiting. |
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| Perfect |
| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 6:55 am Post subject: |
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On Probation
Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 161
Location: The tip of your tongue
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| water wrote: |
| In expectation of your extended reply, avaiting. |
URGH!
Few weeks with a limited net access starting.
Now.
I:
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| Did you know that every dominant (fifth) does not hold a perfect pitch in the piano? |
The comma of Pythagoras.
An octave scale deriving from the same tone maintains a lower pitch than a series of fifths.
hence:
The fifth is to be the only clean interval. Perfect quant.
water
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The next question is then: Is all music mimetic? Serial music is hardly mimetic, I should think. Elevator music and techno are also not mimetic.
The pieces in Das wohltemperierete Klavier – are they mimetic?
How about sung music with a comprehensible text (not vocalises)? If you don't understand the text of a mass or an opera – can you listen to it at all, does it make any sense? I think that esp. in sung music, the mimetic nature of music becomes apparent. |
Serial music is based on dodecaphony and in the most basic sense occurs like so:
The composer builds the piece with a punch of numerical values and series.
And I take it that you’ve been and seen an opera.
You should know that it’s not that much of an artistic feat to experience it. Get ready to be entertained.
I personally dislike opera (somewhat) because of the refined nature that it condones in order to draw stories and mental models. The filament of moments seeking to clarify is a tough predicament to sew into a consistent story. And the stories must loose some of their deepness in order to give room for the music. I don’t live in Vienna.
And mimetic as in acting is apparent, but musically, the mimetic flavours constructed with smaller pieces that have molded into containing features – consistent features that enforce rules – are for critics.
For the critics to find and for the composers to bypass, hide.
That being said, I prefer concertos and them more.
They rely to features closer to my heart.
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| I assume there are always two components in music: the mimetic content and the form. |
So much more than melody and rhythm.
I could list… and list… and list.
But I’m like so depressed and shit.
This fucking summerjob is going to be the end of me.
Ergo, hence
Buh bye.
PS. I wouldn’t use the word mimetic. |
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| water |
| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 500
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Alright, Perfect.
Have a good time, and "mimetic" is the right word. |
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| Perfect |
| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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On Probation
Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 161
Location: The tip of your tongue
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What??
Seize and piss off, but at least abandon the bait.
Wannabe fisherman fuck |
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| water |
| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Forum Masters Degree
Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 500
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Perfect,
I thought you were saying buh-bye to the discussion, since you are so short on time. I can't read your mind.
And drop that tone, there is no need for it. |
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| Perfect |
| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:09 am Post subject: |
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On Probation
Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 161
Location: The tip of your tongue
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| water wrote: |
Perfect,
I thought you were saying buh-bye to the discussion, since you are so short on time. I can't read your mind.
And drop that tone, there is no need for it. |
Sowwy.
I'm like such a bitch when I have a few, and stuff. |
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| (In)Sanity |
| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:23 am Post subject: |
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Forum Cosmic Wizard
Joined: 19 Oct 2004
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Location: Phoenix AZ
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| Perfect often forgets he's still on probation. |
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| Perfect |
| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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On Probation
Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 161
Location: The tip of your tongue
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| (In)Sanity wrote: |
| Perfect often forgets he's still on probation. |
I'm sorry, I didn't mean it, it just happened.
Click on the image to view it at its original size |
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| Steve Miller |
| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:45 am Post subject: Re: This and that. |
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Forum Masters Degree
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 500
Location: Magdeburg, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany
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| Perfect wrote: |
Think of the Satan worshipping fucktard who listens to Bach’s: Toccata & Fugue never realizing, worse, never experiencing the praise for God. |
I think chances are pretty much up as though I'm asking the wrong question, but, who was 'fucktard'?
I do read you post as if 'fucktard' was a person. Who is he being?
Thank you,
Steve |
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