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| Scifor Refugee |
 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:04 am Post subject: The definitions of atheism and agnosticism |
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A huge amount of time gets wasted in this forum on arguments between people who are using different definitions of the terms “atheism” and “agnosticism”. This post is an attempt to end (or at least reduce) such pointless discussion by clarifying the standard definitions of those terms.
“Agnostic” is probably one of the most badly misunderstood terms in religious philosophy. Most people believe “agnostic” to mean a person who is undecided, but that’s not the formal definition of agnosticism as used by religious philosophers. The formal, academic definition of agnosticism is the belief that it is impossible for people to know whether or not a god exists, and that any attempt to discern the existence of god is therefore futile. This is not the same as someone who simply hasn’t made up their mind on the issue. Here are some links to references on agnosticism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01215c.htm
There are two type of atheism: “strong atheism” and “weak atheism”. A strong atheist believes that no gods exist, while a weak atheist merely does not believe in any particular gods. Although it might seem like needless semantics, there is actually an important difference between “does not believe that gods exist” and “believes that no gods exist.” When saying “I believe that no gods exist” one is making a positive statement of belief. In other words, a strong atheist believes that he has found some sort of evidence (through logic, empiricism, or whatever) that indicates that gods do not exist. It is reasonable to ask a strong atheist for their evidence that no gods exist, and the burden of proof is on the strong atheist to back up their claim.
A weak atheist, on the other hand, is simply a person who is not convinced that gods exist. They have no burden of proof, because they are not making any claims – they are simply stating a lack of belief due to insufficient/lacking evidence. Unlike a positive atheist, it is not reasonable to ask a weak atheist to prove that god does not exist, because a weak atheist does not claim to have such proof; rather, the burden of roof is on the person who claims that gods exist.
Note that agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive; a person could be both agnostic and a weak atheist. Also, it’s possible for a person to be a weak atheist and/or agnostic in general, but still strongly disbelieve in any particular religion.
Note that I am talking about the formal, academic definitions of agnosticism and atheism here. You are certainly free to substitute your own personal definitions, but in order to avoid pointless semantic arguments you should be sure to make it clear that you are using a non-standard definition. Also, you shouldn’t be surprised if most of the other people on the board aren’t interested in your personal definition and prefer to use the standard academic definitions.
Last edited by Scifor Refugee on Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| captaincaveman |
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| It is reasonable to ask a strong atheist for their evidence that no gods exist, and the burden of proof is on the strong atheist to back up their claim. |
No it is not reasonable, the burden of proof does not lie with the strong athiest to prove any "claim"
thiests are the ones with explaining to do 
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| GhostofMaxwell |
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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What is it we are claiming?
I dont claim anything! I reject your(the theist) claim!
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| Scifor Refugee |
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| captaincaveman wrote: |
No it is not reasonable, the burden of proof does not lie with the strong athiest to prove any "claim"
thiests are the ones with explaining to do |
A strong atheist is a person who claims to have some reason to believe that gods do not exist. A strong atheist is one who makes the statement "I am sure that god does not exist." If someone makes such a claim, it is reasonable to ask them for their evidence that god does not exist. |
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| Scifor Refugee |
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| GhostofMaxwell wrote: |
| What is it we are claiming? |
If you are a strong atheist, you claim to have some reason to believe that gods do not exist.
| Quote: |
I dont claim anything! I reject your(the theist) claim! |
Then you are a weak atheist, and (as I said in my first post) have no burden of proof. |
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| GhostofMaxwell |
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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True , but at the risk of becoming like a broken record, I don't claim to have some reason to believe that fairies with Christmas trees up their asses dont exist outside of a human fantasy, also.
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| Scifor Refugee |
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| GhostofMaxwell wrote: |
| True , but at the risk of becoming like a broken record, I don't claim to have some reason that fairies with Christmas trees up their asses exist outside of a human fantasy, also. |
What is your point? I think everyone here already knows that.
By default, you should not believe any claim without some evidence. But not believing a claim due to lack of evidence is not the same as having evidence that the claim is false. |
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| marnixR |
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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i am a strong atheist who says "i believe there is no god" - i do that without any firm evidence apart from a conviction built up over the years that this is the best explanation of the universe as i see it
no theist can offer proof of the existence of god, and instead states that belief is sufficient - i don't see why i can't allow myself the same luxury of not requiring evidence
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| GhostofMaxwell |
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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My point is, there is no discernible difference in probability of existence between "a god" and any other fantasy figure.
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| Scifor Refugee |
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| marnixR wrote: |
i am a strong atheist who says "i believe there is no god" - i do that without any firm evidence apart from a conviction built up over the years that this is the best explanation of the universe as i see it
no theist can offer proof of the existence of god, and instead states that belief is sufficient - i don't see why i can't allow myself the same luxury of not requiring evidence |
Well, it’s up to you. Generally atheists ruthlessly bash theists for holding a belief that they can’t back up with evidence. I suppose you can have a belief without evidence as well if you like, but then the best you can say is that your beliefs aren’t any more ill-founded then theirs. If you’re happy with that, then go for it I suppose. |
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| dejawolf |
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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..... 
if i hadn't seen it with my own 2 eyes, i would never have believed it happened. a theist who yields!!!
there might be hope after all.
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only a fool puts art above science. |
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| Scifor Refugee |
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| dejawolf wrote: |
.....
if i hadn't seen it with my own 2 eyes, i would never have believed it happened. a theist who yields!!!
there might be hope after all. |
What theist?
Edit:
Oh, wait - did you just assume that I was a theist simply because I was having a minor disagreement with some other atheists? My, what a credit to clear-headed atheist reasoning you are. It's great to have you on the team.
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| scientstphilosophertheist |
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Scifor Refugee |
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| scientstphilosophertheist wrote: |
| Nice definitions. Thanks...the old semantics arguments were getting particularly annoying. |
My dream (and I admit it's a pretty wild fantasy) is that any time the semantics arguments start up, someone can just point to this thread and say "Read, comprehend, then come back" and shut down these obnoxious arguments before they start. Or at the very least, perhaps the semantics arguments will be confined to this thread, instead of littering dozens of other threads. Then the people who don't want to re-hash the same old arguments over and over can simply ignore them while the rest of us get on with other topics. |
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| GhostofMaxwell |
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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Down worry about it, be happy!
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