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| Sciler |
 Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:41 am Post subject: The circle goes around |
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Forum Freshman
Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 41
Location: UK
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Has anyone noticed the cycle that the world seems to go around?
First we arm and train certain countries and then a few years latter we're at war with them and now they're the 'bad guy's'. Also all of the back room deals to gain oil rights and minning rights in certain countries and then they're having to ask for aid because they've spent all the money ether on fighting between them selves or they've put all the money that was for the country in a private bank account. When will it end?
I read somwhere that Africa spends as much money on arms as we give in aid. |
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| kojax |
| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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It's how the defense lobby keeps itself in business. From their perspective, it's profit both ways. They get paid to do the arming of those countries, and they get paid when we go in and blow them up.
I don't know whether to think of them as an entrenched bureaucracy or as a two-party scam to embezzle tax dollars. |
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| jackson33 |
| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Forum Professor
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| Most countries, under some form of democracy, do not turn evil by any others standard. Those countries offered aid in their beginning, including the US (from the Dutch to fight the War for Independence and France 1780's) by the way and maintain the system they began under have turned out just fine. The few that have been offered help, for what ever reason, that do turn bad, do so by circumventing their own systems and not always foreseeable. Africa, is a little different, in that many people, humanitarian groups or governments, try to help the people with in the country. Many countries in Africa, have major health problems, with current life expectancies under 40 years, have climates which do not and will never support population at todays levels and can create the means for virus/germ mutations which could effect the worlds populations... |
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| Sciler |
| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:34 am Post subject: |
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have climates which do not and will never support population at todays levels and can create the means for virus/germ mutations which could effect the worlds populations...[/quote]
what, so your saying that the next time a virus explodes we should blame Africa and its crap soil and not goverment funded research labs? |
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| Pong |
| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:11 am Post subject: Re: The circle goes around |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 1124
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| Sciler wrote: |
| First we arm and train certain countries and then a few years latter we're at war with them and now they're the 'bad guy's'. |
Yeah, the term is "realpolitic" when we think it's advantageous; "blowback" when it stings.
The "Taliban" literally the "Students" whom began their careers as shell-shocked war orphans indoctrinated through CIA funded madrassas in Pakistan, to chant "Death to the secularists!" as they filed north against Soviet intervention. They'd stop at camps along the route to learn guerrilla warfare and terror tactics from American advisers, receive complementary grenades and shoulder-fired missiles. Go kill an atheist, pal. It was a sort of "freedom-fighter" (our name) assembly line. Bin Laden's construction company got contracts to build the training camps and tunnels, he liked what he saw. Death to the secularists indeed.
It should be monumentally embarrassing that US regime-changed Saddam for gassing Halabjah, a strategic border town during Iran/Iraq war, yet Americans sold the gas to Iraq and provided satellite recon with artillery "target selection" throughout that time, against enemy Iran.
I dunno. So long as people have short memories I guess it works. I mean if you're the biggest wheel on Earth then to keep that status you'd best roll around causing chaos and sewing civil wars and so forth. Even bomb countries back, "to the stone age" if necessary. Few countries the the US has not bled, pummeled, or otherwise overtly disrupted yet.
Wow, what extreme views. |
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| Sciler |
| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:01 am Post subject: |
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Forum Freshman
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Location: UK
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It dosnt sound as if we've learnt anything in the last 2000 years or so. If your the biggest in the room then you do what it takes to keep your possision instead of helping everyone to get to an equal level. It's all about power and domination over everyone else.
They were doing the same kind of things back in the medieval times! |
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| Zitterbewegung |
| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:24 am Post subject: Re: The circle goes around |
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Forum Sophomore
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 178
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| Pong wrote: |
It should be monumentally embarrassing that US regime-changed Saddam for gassing Halabjah, a strategic border town during Iran/Iraq war, yet Americans sold the gas to Iraq and provided satellite recon with artillery "target selection" throughout that time, against enemy Iran.
I dunno. So long as people have short memories I guess it works. I mean if you're the biggest wheel on Earth then to keep that status you'd best roll around causing chaos and sewing civil wars and so forth. Even bomb countries back, "to the stone age" if necessary. Few countries the the US has not bled, pummeled, or otherwise overtly disrupted yet.
Wow, what extreme views. |
Extreme?? No, just realistic. That's american foreign policy for you. Let's extend the list a little bit further.
Salvador Allende in Chile...that li'l socialist bastard that had the nerve to tell the US to go and shove it. Whammo....right wing military overthrows his government with the aid of CIA.
Can anyone spell Ollie North?? You remember, Iran-Contra affair. Rumsfeld smiling while shaking hands with.....what was his name........you know this guy with the mustache killing all those people...ummmm....Husnan or some such. And it goes onandonandonandonand............
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| jackson33 |
| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Sciler wrote: |
| have climates which do not and will never support population at todays levels and can create the means for virus/germ mutations which could effect the worlds populations... |
what, so your saying that the next time a virus explodes we should blame Africa and its crap soil and not goverment funded research labs?[/quote]
..........................................................................................................
I have no idea, where you get that nor am I sure I understand your point.
Virus mutate and conditions in in many third world countries favor such mutation. Hygiene, waste disposal and living with animals, the most likely problems. I mention Africa, only because statistics are the apparent poorest for human existence. 32 to 39 are not very long life expectancies and several counties in Africa, these ages are given.
"crap soil", is no longer an excuse for food production. Much of Canada, US and now Brazil, have taken desert or waste lands, irrigated and are producing much of the food supplies of the world. I am sure there are other places as well.
Those labs are in constant motion, to prevent pandemics. Not always governments, often pharmaceutical concerns trying to guess the next generation of mutations for influenza or some virus that has mutated beyond our medications and/or our immune systems. Whether it forms in Africa, Asia or downtown NYC, is not important. |
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| Ophiolite |
| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:04 am Post subject: |
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Forum Radioactive Isotope
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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| jackson33 wrote: |
| I have no idea, where you get that nor am I sure I understand your point. |
Sciler seems to invoking conspiracy theory to account for AIDS and other viruses, implying they did not originate naturally, but in secret government laboratories.
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| Sciler |
| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Forum Freshman
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[. Many countries in Africa, have major health problems, with current life expectancies under 40 years, have climates which do not and will never support population at todays levels and can create the means for virus/germ mutations which could effect the worlds populations...[/quote
No, What im saying that is more possible that new germ mutation would be bred in a lab. And i didnt even bring that up to start with!
And anyhow I started this thread to disscuss how badly the major players in the world ie US, UK, France etc treat the rest of the world. How people's rights are being swept away in the persuit of 'progress' and how we as a planet dont seem to learnt anything, money still seems to be the major motivation. |
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| Ophiolite |
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:46 am Post subject: |
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Forum Radioactive Isotope
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| Sciler wrote: |
| And anyhow I started this thread to disscuss how badly the major players in the world ie US, UK, France etc treat the rest of the world. How people's rights are being swept away in the persuit of 'progress' and how we as a planet dont seem to learnt anything, money still seems to be the major motivation. |
So what do you suggest we do about it?
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The Universe is not only weirder than we imagine it is weirder than we can imagine. J.B.S.Haldane. |
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| Sciler |
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:43 am Post subject: |
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Forum Freshman
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Location: UK
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to be honest I'm not sure. We could bring what's happening more in to the publics eye. Campaning with various groups ie greenpeace, amnesty international, oxfam etc. Write to MP's, goverments, the Prime minister. Get people to sign petions, If pepole joined together and said that they went going to stand for it anymore then things would change. But they need to be solutions that work, take Zimbabwe for example, yes the UN has condemed what is going on over there and what are they going to do about it? Send a letter! 
Any more ideas, anyone? |
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| Pong |
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| Sciler wrote: |
| Any more ideas, anyone? |
You said money is the major motivation. So, insert your crowbar there. |
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| jackson33 |
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1212
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Sciler; I will try, trying not to be confronational....
Africa in general and parts of Asia are run by tribal leaders, dead set on control of their territory. Occasionally one of these leaders have gained control over a nation by one means or another. A very strong movement, with in Africa, is Anarchism or if dissected Socialism, both usually requiring high degree of enforcement by government and its military. None of this is new and very much part of their history.
An analogy to this and I need to use the US; We have city governments (local tribes) which are for reason parts of states (Nations in Africa) and somehow developed 'common interest', not only for the towns/cities but in conjunction with National Interest.
The British, in introducing Capitalism and their people for practicing farming and other business interest in Africa (many parts of the world, over 500 years), along with law/government, originally under the Monarchy System years ago, were attempting to civilize a people. Where they succeeded in many places, tribal leaders have persisted to this day.
Much as the Muslim influence in many societies (including Africa) and many leaders in Africa, the traditional/cultural glory of their society is from the past or what was. What was, however can not nor in my opinion should be allowed, in the interest of those societies or what is going to be a world community. Like it or not, that is a reality for what will be....
This a very brief outline, based on MY personal opinion. If you have a specific issue or a specific reason to think any government should NOT show interest in the future of Africa, I will address accordingly, but I do not think any of the atrocities that do occur in Africa (and they do) are the results of any one outside country.
As for the UN, they have been and are the cause for many of their problems in Africa, with many of those members having the same distaste for capitalism or Democracy in general... |
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| Pong |
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Jackson33 that's not what this discussion is about. We've just witnessed a developed, secular, once cohesive nation bombed back to 3rd world conditions and its people set against each other by the most overt foreign division (like supporting both Kurds and Shia to wage civil war against their fellow Sunni citizens). There are many bulkanizing movements today fueled by foreign powers. If you must reframe the topic to colonial history, then begin with T. E. Lawrence. |
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