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| Michael Bloxham |
 Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:48 pm Post subject: The Flaws of Democracy |
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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I want to generate a list of some of the inherent flaws of representative democracies, as part of the Clean-Slate Government project over at the Clean Slate Society Forums. I welcome you to contribute to this project (both here and on there), either through posting more flaws, or offering potential fixes.
From Wikipedia article on Demarchy:
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| Most modern democracies are made up of republics or parliaments. In both of these cases, citizens participate in the direct election of individuals to represent them. Unfortunately, most citizens have neither the time nor the inclination to adequately study which person or party to vote for (see Rational ignorance). As a result, much time and money is devoted to political canvassing and advertising—where politicians promote themselves in much the same way as a commercial product. The result of this is that people vote according to their impressions of the politician and party based upon political advertising, plus any other form of media that has influenced them. The problem with this is that people may not necessarily vote for the best candidate since they have not taken the time to examine for whom to vote. |
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| Many politicians make decisions based not necessarily upon what is the best thing to do, nor upon their own ethics and morals, but upon what is best for their own political gain. A politician is dependent upon his or her good standing with voters, as well as an ability to "fit in" with the party political structure. Since a person's time in politics sometimes is short, it is only natural that they do everything possible to continue their career. |
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| In a traditional democracy, what happens when the majority, who may have the moral highground, are also pacifist and do not vote? |
- Anonymous
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| A reliance on elites to keep things going in the face of apathy and withdrawal by the populace calls into question how long a polity can remain democratic, if not its very right to call itself a functioning democracy |
- Ian Budge, "The New Challenge of Direct Democracy"
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| 'A democracy is nothing more than an angry mob, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine. |
- Thomas Jefferson
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What is the use of democracy without the rule of law, democratic institutions, and civil society?
We find that democracy in the Middle East actually precipitates problems. Contrary to the neoconservatives’ arguments, democracy simply increases competition amongst the various factions in Iraq, or Lebanon, and simply turns each group against each other, increasing tensions. As they say, “all politics is tribal,” if in the U.S. Obama is getting over 90% of the black vote - and Hillary is getting a clear supermajority of the white women vote - then why do we blame anyone for voting their tribe?
“Democracy,” just means a way of choosing leaders. Unlike common belief, it is not the “only” or “best” form of government. Throughout the centuries philosophers have defined governments not by the way of choosing their leaders - but whether they rule for their own sake or for the sake of their peoples (like Aristotle). Moreover, the American founding fathers themselves feared and hated direct democracy for the “tyranny of the majority,” and ignorance of the people in directly choosing their leaders. In the words of American political philosopher Willmore Kendall, the founders made it such that majorities would have to be so enduring that they lasted several years - in electing a President and a Congress - and to survive many challenges of minority rights, until they would be passed.
Friedrich Bastiat, an eighteenth century French economist, writes in his The Law, that one unfortunate byproduct of democracy is that because one group will use government to achieve unfair advantages - for instance big business - then the people will use government to also achieve unfair advantages - for instance creating more and more regulations and programs against business and pro-labor. In the end, Bastiat claimed, you had a hodgepodge of laws created for the sake of injustice on other groups - and since two wrongs don’t make a right, you had a web of injustice. |
- From http://abuhatem.hadithuna.com/a-declaration-of-war-reflections-on-the-lebanon-crisis/
Plenty more to come...
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| Michael Bloxham |
| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Selene |
| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:40 am Post subject: |
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Location: I live in Bertrand Russells teapot!
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I hate Democrats
They are the worlds worst liars and cheats.
They use it as a sound bit to lull the populace into a false sense of security
We are supposed to have a democracy her in the UK
My arse!
I would rather trust a fool than those devils
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| Cosmo |
| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 4:36 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 22 Nov 2007
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MB
A democracy is the best form of government we can have if it is working right.
The main culprit against this is capitalism's corruption of the system.
So insteasd of the government controlling capitalism, they control the government.
I do NOY oppose capitalism entirely. But I do oppose the 'runaway' capitalism.
It runs away from our US workers, our taxes, healthcare benefits, pensions, equality of citizenship by their runaway dollar stuffing frenzy that creates their runaway salaries and no doubt other such tactics of theirs.
And the US Constitution does not mandate the 'self serving' type of individuals.
The word Democracy is derived from the Greek root 'people power'.
On the other hand, the word 'republic' is derived from the Latin root
WEALTH + public.
Well, it just happens that the republicans are serving the corporate wealthy and the Roman church that have joined hands and created the 'new world order". that has started a spiral of DOWN sizing our economy to the third world countries .
So you now see the state of our econmy that is not serving the people but the wealthy instead.
There is a way to restore our Democracy to serve the citizens and that is the PUBLIC FINANCING OF OUR ELECTIONS. At the same time prevent all private dollars out of this function that gives the wealthy an UNFAIR advantage in politics.
The electoral process is a GOVERNMENT function and only government dollars should be used.
So an honest system working as our C'N mandates, would be the best type of goverment, IMO.
Read my article below on an ideal government that is Democratic Socialism.
Thank you.
Cosmo
Last edited by Cosmo on Sat May 31, 2008 4:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| JEQuidam |
| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: Re: The Flaws of Democracy |
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| Michael Bloxham wrote: |
| I want to generate a list of some of the inherent flaws of representative democracies, |
To what purpose?
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| Michael Bloxham |
| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| JEQuidam |
| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Bloxham wrote: |
Why not?  |
OK. I can't engage unless I understand the objective of the exercise.
Anyway, in your initial post you reference "representative democracy" but then several of your quotes refer strictly to democracy (not representative democracy). As you know, these are two very different concepts.
For example, Thomas Jefferson's quote was directed at democracy, not representative democracy.
I only favor "direct democracy" to the extent that we can directly elect our Representative to the federal House. I argue that, for the most part, those candidates are currently pre-selected by one of the two parties and/or the special interests. Otherwise, I am an ardent supporter of our republican form of government.
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| Michael Bloxham |
| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: |
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I assumed that the immediate purpose of such an excercise to be self-evident: That you must first understand a problem before you can imagine a solution.
I included Jefferson's quote as it is applicable to proportional democracy, which is the usual form of democracy as practiced. This is also one flaw which both represenative and direct democracies share (at least in their common forms).
Representative democracies are easier to flaw, and are also the more widely practised form of democracy, so I would expect most discussion to relate to representative systems. But I concede that there are inherent flaws in all forms of democracy, and I wouldn't discourage discussion of these. I just didn't want to preclude alternative forms of democracy as potential fixes either; hence my particular wordage.
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| jackson33 |
| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: |
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MB; To my knowledge, no one has ever said the US system is perfect or with out flaw. In fact the opposite was and is thought. Its that the system has worked, with success, under the principles and law set up from its beginning. This representative system and the unique 'check/balance' practice, would not and could not work under any form of pure democracy.
Any issue or law from with a popular vote, would benefit only the majority in a time, not the interest of the Nation.
I am not sure where your going...."If we started from scratch, knowing what we do now". I recall many years ago, a movement wanting to write a new 'Constitution'. Think it lasted for about a week, when tens of thousands wrote in ideas; generally along personal grievances and then on trivial issues. The US Constitution and assume most others allow for change and in the US, it does NOT have to come from the Federal Government. In the US, where 50 sovereign States are involved, they have the right to petition government for a Convention to amend the Constitution, so long has 3/4 of them request that course. Technically it does not even have to be for the same grievance... |
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| JEQuidam |
| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Bloxham wrote: |
| I assumed that the immediate purpose of such an excercise to be self-evident: That you must first understand a problem before you can imagine a solution. |
It helps if you first identify and define the "problem" prior to proposing the solution.
If you are asking people to idenfity the shortcomings of "democracy", then I suggest you narrow the scope to refer to specific manifestations of "democracy" as currently implemented (as opposed to some broad theory of democracy.
Also, it is probably more meaningful if those "problems" were identified in a comparative way; e.g., the pros and cons of a republican form of government vs. a direct democracy.
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| JEQuidam |
| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| jackson33 wrote: |
| I am not sure where your going...."If we started from scratch, knowing what we do now". |
Jackson33, with these types of things, my skepticism is that it is easier to dream up vague utopian alternatives than it is to focus on the practical challenge of improving the system we already have. The former requires only the ability to engage in idle fantasizing; the latter requires commitment and hard work.
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| Cosmo |
| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:39 am Post subject: |
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MB
Whats your alternative to our RD?
Cosmo |
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| Michael Bloxham |
| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: |
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I don't have one. As I said, "you must first understand a problem before you can imagine a solution". I don't adequately understand the problem; hence my post. Can anyone think of more flaws?
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| Cosmo |
| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Bloxham wrote: |
| I don't have one. As I said, "you must first understand a problem before you can imagine a solution". I don't adequately understand the problem; hence my post. Can anyone think of more flaws? |
As I have said, the problem is 'corruption' of the government officials.
Capitalism also has problems. Remember 1929? That was a major problem.
Our current economic problems is also a major problem with the crooked CEO's exposed after 9/11 and the yo yo economy that created the current housing slump.
So now we have another problem with the 'inflation' of costs for our goods and probably services as well.
These are 'major' problems with capitalism.
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| jackson33 |
| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: |
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MB; Briefly, Most government/societies through history have fallen from internal cause. Corruption generally given the blame...
The framers of the US Government, knew this and several warned that for any success, both government and the people would have to live with in the laws and the laws should evolve with an interest of the Nation and principles set up for guidance. Said another way; Laws themselves can turn society, if the society turns, with an end result of failure. No system can be devised, where all people are satisfied, its just not possible. "Flaws" are perceptions from social/economic/political viewpoints, not necessarily from the majority or in fact a near majority of the total. |
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