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| Bunbury |
 Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: Is a blastocyst a person? |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 850
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This November, when the citizens of Colorado vote for a new president, we will also have the opportunity to vote on an amendment to the Colorado state constitution as follows:
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Be it Enacted by the People of the State of Colorado:
SECTION 1. Article II of the constitution of the state of Colorado is amended BY THE ADDITION OF A NEW SECTION to read:
Section 31. Person defined. As used in sections 3, 6, and 25 of Article II of the state constitution, the terms "person" or "persons" shall include any human being from the moment of fertilization. |
Here are the affected sections, rewritten as the amendment would require:
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Article II, Section 3. Inalienable Rights. All persons, including any human beings from the moment of fertilization, have certain natural, essential and inalienable rights, among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; of acquiring, possessing and protecting property; and of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness.
Article II, Section 6. Equality of Justice. Courts of justice shall be open to every person, including any human being from the moment of fertilization, and a speedy remedy afforded for every injury to person, including any human being from the moment of fertilization, property or character; and right and justice should be administered without sale, denial or delay.
Article II, Section 25. Due Process of Law. No person, including any human being from the moment of fertilization, shall be deprived of life, liberty or property, without due process of law. |
It’s an amendment designed to overthrow Roe v. Wade and make abortion illegal in all cases (no exception for any reason), and make the use of morning-after pills illegal (since a fertilized egg does not need to be implanted to be considered a human). Among other consequences, many forms of contraception would become illegal, the discarding of “extra” fertilized eggs in fertility clinics would become illegal, miscarriages might be subject to potentially criminal investigation, strenuous physical activity by women after sex could become subject to potential child-endangerment charges, and treatment of a woman’s illness would become contingent on not harming a blastocyst.
The amendment’s promoters claim "This victory is the voice of the people and all credit goes our Creator". The victory in question is their success in getting the issue onto the ballot for a vote, by means of petition signatures.
This is another case of people trying to legislate their beliefs and their god into our lives, and unfortunately it seems to have a good chance of succeeding. |
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| Harold14370 |
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Is a blastocyst a person? |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1676
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Bunbury wrote: |
This is another case of people trying to legislate their beliefs and their god into our lives, |
Don't we all try to legislate our beliefs into someone else's life? It's called government. |
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| Bunbury |
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 850
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| True. My real question is the one in the title block. |
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| marnixR |
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Isotope
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 2590
Location: Cardiff, Wales
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no - it may be life, but it's not a person
_________________
if you find this place too crowded or too confrontational, how about trying Philosophorum,
the amicable forum where small is beautiful and even the trolls are intelligent
biology without evolution is but stamp collecting |
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| i_feel_tiredsleepy |
| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:09 am Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 659
Location: Montreal
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| Of course it's life, but so is mold and pond scum. |
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| Harold14370 |
| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
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Location: Pennsylvania
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| Would anybody care to speculate when the pond scum becomes a human being? |
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| free radical |
| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Masters Degree
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 525
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| Certainly when it is self-aware. Arguably earlier, when it can feel pain. Before that, in terms of a declaration of personhood, it is hard to distinguish dividing cells that are a blastocyst ... from dividing cells that reside in any other part of the body. |
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| marnixR |
| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Isotope
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 2590
Location: Cardiff, Wales
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that's the problem with continuums : it's quite easy to see that at one end there's a clump of cells + at the other a human being, but less easy to define any kind of Rubicon inbetween
in the end, where in this continuum you decide to plant the golden spike to define a human being is more a political and ethical rather than a scientific decision
_________________
if you find this place too crowded or too confrontational, how about trying Philosophorum,
the amicable forum where small is beautiful and even the trolls are intelligent
biology without evolution is but stamp collecting |
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| Bunbury |
| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
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| There may not be a Rubicon, but you still know if you're in Rome and not Vienna. |
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| marnixR |
| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:01 am Post subject: |
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Forum Isotope
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
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Location: Cardiff, Wales
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that's what i said - if you're near one of the extremities of a continuum, there's no question about where you are, it's in the transition zone that it becomes a matter of (often arbitrary) definition
the decision where to place the marker may be AIDED by science, but it will not be MADE by science
_________________
if you find this place too crowded or too confrontational, how about trying Philosophorum,
the amicable forum where small is beautiful and even the trolls are intelligent
biology without evolution is but stamp collecting |
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| Obviously |
| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:27 am Post subject: |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
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"Is a blastocyst a person?", in my opinion no. It is a potential person.
_________________
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms."
-- Albert Einstein
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings."
-- Albert Einstein |
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| sunshinewarrior |
| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:30 am Post subject: Re: Is a blastocyst a person? |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 1022
Location: London
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| Harold14370 wrote: |
| Bunbury wrote: |
This is another case of people trying to legislate their beliefs and their god into our lives, |
Don't we all try to legislate our beliefs into someone else's life? It's called government. |
But I thought the point of having a constitution was to ensure that certain issues are not mucked about with - including the non-establishment of religion, the bill of rights and so on...
What will it take for this amendment to be passed, in terms of voting and procedure? |
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| marnixR |
| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:08 am Post subject: |
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Forum Isotope
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 2590
Location: Cardiff, Wales
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i want to pass an amendment for teaching evolution in churches, as part of balanced treatment 
_________________
if you find this place too crowded or too confrontational, how about trying Philosophorum,
the amicable forum where small is beautiful and even the trolls are intelligent
biology without evolution is but stamp collecting |
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| Harold14370 |
| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Is a blastocyst a person? |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1676
Location: Pennsylvania
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| sunshinewarrior wrote: |
But I thought the point of having a constitution was to ensure that certain issues are not mucked about with - including the non-establishment of religion, the bill of rights and so on...
What will it take for this amendment to be passed, in terms of voting and procedure? |
You and I may each have a different idea of where on the continuum human life begins. This may or may not be based on a religious belief. We each have a right to pursue legislation that reflects our own belief. It has nothing to do with establishment of religion. |
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| Bunbury |
| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: Re: Is a blastocyst a person? |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 850
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| sunshinewarrior wrote: |
But I thought the point of having a constitution was to ensure that certain issues are not mucked about with - including the non-establishment of religion, the bill of rights and so on...
What will it take for this amendment to be passed, in terms of voting and procedure? |
I believe it will take a simple majority at the polls. Our constitution includes a clause that allows citizen initiatives to bypass the normal workings of our elected bodies. Many of us think it is too easy to change the constitution. (A few years ago we enacted simultaneous amendments that required annual increases in spending on public education and reduced the amount of tax money available for this. The elected bodies are supposed to weigh the consequences and make rational decisions, but highly motivated citizen blocs don't necessarily do this.) This is straying heavily into politics so maybe it doesn't belong in Health and Medicine, but anyway here's what it says:
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| The legislative power of the state shall be vested in the general assembly consisting of a senate and house of representatives, both to be elected by the people, but the people reserve to themselves the power to propose laws and amendments to the constitution and to enact or reject the same at the polls independent of the general assembly |
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