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| Demons are real, ask God |
 Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: How good people turn evil. |
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Forum Freshman
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Has anyone here read, or partly read, the Lucifer Effect, by Phillip Zimbardo?
I found it very disturbing in places but also strangely enlightening. What are your opinions on it?
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| Lawrence |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't read it but it honestly intrigues me. What does it cover?
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Just to be clear - I'm a student in IT. I am not a scientist, or trained philosopher, I'm just trying to portray my ideas. |
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| Demons are real, ask God |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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The majority of it is Dr Zimbardo's famous (or perhaps infamous) Stanford Prison Experiment, which in which a group of student volunteers are split into two groups, the prisoners and the guards, and to then observe their behavior.
The experiment was supposed to last for two weeks but got stopped after 6 days due to the brutality of the guards and how subservient the prisoners became.
Zimbardo said that the transformation that took place when normal people are put into a position of power was horrifying to behold, and in the book he tries to discern why this happens, and what it says about us.
He also tries to use his experiences to explain the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture scandal in Iraq. The detail those bits go into is a bit graphic...
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Fat people are harder to kidnap.
"Humanity's insignificance pales in comparison to its ego" |
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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The Doctor
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
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Location: England, UK.
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All respect, that was decided to see what roles people take in those situations, Give a man power and that will test to see if he will do immoral things.
So to answer your question, the thing that turns good people bad is power. Provided of course that the people doing 'bad' things are good in the first place.
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| dejawolf |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition |
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:19 am Post subject: |
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The Doctor
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
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I always found this interesting. If only I'd payed more attention in college.
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| paralith |
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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The Stanford Prison Experiment's results are very questionable. Remember that Zimbardo himself took part in the experiment and consistently had direct contact with the people in it. Especially as he assigned himself the role of prison warden, he probably affected a large influence on the behavior of the people involved. It was very bad form of him to directly involve himself that way, because now we can't rule out a bias that he may have imposed on the experiment's proceedings.
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Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
~Jean-Paul Sartre
Monkeys in Clothes - hosted by SFN blogs |
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| Demons are real, ask God |
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure even he expected it to turn out the way it did though.
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Fat people are harder to kidnap.
"Humanity's insignificance pales in comparison to its ego" |
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| paralith |
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
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| Demons are real, ask God wrote: |
| I'm not sure even he expected it to turn out the way it did though. |
You don't have to be consciously thinking about your biases in order for them to be expressed in your behavior. That's why achieving objectivity is so important.
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Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
~Jean-Paul Sartre
Monkeys in Clothes - hosted by SFN blogs |
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| Theoryofrelativity |
| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Professor
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I think there is a big difference between 'role play' and really transforming in a given situation.
The people in that experiment undoubtedly adopted 'roles' that they felt were accurate portrayals of their given parts.
Meanwhile, many people are capable of evil, just give them permission to be so.
Look how many brothers, fathers and sons became and become rapists and butchers in war time.
Give humans freedom, permission, power and indemnity and they will do things that the moral and legal laws protect us from.
Humans are unaware of how much they restrain themselves due to moral and legal laws and how different they may behave without them.
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| Red X |
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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"How good people turn evil"
Just by looking at the thread title, the first thing that came to mind was Zimbardo's Lucifer Effect. I haven't read Zimbardo's book, but I have watched his Stanford Prison Experiment, and I found his explanation of it, being "The Power of the Situation," to be quite interesting.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2o0Nx31yicY
But the power of the situation can lead to people doing evil thing AND good things. I think that the Milgram experiment shedded more light of the interesting pheomena of horrible acts. It showed how the power of authority is a big influence on the behavior of individuals and what they'll do. But then again, authority can result in both evil AND good. (I.E. religious morals dictated by their various deities. Some are bad/questionable, but some are good.
Here's a replication of the study.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=y6GxIuljT3w
The replication wasn't subjected to IRB review, but probably had informed consent with the exception of telling subjects of the deception factor. |
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