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| Pendragon |
 Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: How Can Guys Be So Lazy Around the House? |
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Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 1160
Location: Nederland
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That's the title of a funny blog on the economics of housework. The typical man tries to get away with investing as little time as possible in cleaning, dishwashing etc, to the annoyance of the typical woman. But maybe men are right after all.
First of all: how clean should the house be anyway?
In economic terms the optimal amount of dirt in the house is not zero, it's a bit above zero. Getting rid of the last small stain in a carpet takes a lot of time and energy. If getting the carpet 80% clean took you 10 minutes, then getting it 95% clean might take 20 minutes, and getting it 100% clean could take an hour if it's even possible. To anyone who isn't obsessed with cleanliness the optimal amount of dirt left on the carpet would be about 20% rather than 0%. Most men don't feel any guilt for not aiming for a perfectly clean house, and that seems to be the most efficient way to do it.
And why not outsource it? Almost any task can be performed cheaper and at a higher quality by someone who specialises in it. Why bother spending days to learn how to repair your car if you can hire someone who can fix it in an hour? The same applies to cleaning and other household chores: if you spend 5 hours cleaning your house while you could make 10 euro/hour at your own profession, then paying a professional cleaner 40 euro for the job would still make you better off (in practise a professional cleaner would be a lot cheaper because they can do the job much faster). End score: 2 - 0 for the lazy guy?  |
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| UKDutyPaid |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Freshman
Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Posts: 79
Location: London
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| marnixR |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Cosmic Wizard
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 2433
Location: Cardiff, Wales
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just finished reading A Perfect Mess - a lot of it makes sense, in that keeping a perfectly tidy house is far too much effort than it's worth
besides, houses are place where you love and live, not a museum to be preserved in a perfect state of stasis
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| Pong |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 08 Apr 2008
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If the home is a social vehicle, then we want to keep it shipshape, so to speak. Suppose a major destination is holiday dinner, ten family members happily gathered at one table. Ambitious! You'd have to maintain rigorous training and preparation, year 'round, to attain that goal.
A private den is another vessel altogether. |
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| KALSTER |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Cosmic Wizard
Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 2115
Location: South Africa
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A friend of mine had a sign in his house that went "This house is clean enough to be healthy and dirty enough to be happy". Succinct and true.
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"Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan |
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| Selene |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Banned
Joined: 04 Feb 2008
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Location: I live in Bertrand Russells teapot!
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Well my house is small, cluttered with lots of ongoing projects so its impossible to keep tidy!
I think cleanliness is more important.
I'm not a regular houseworker because i'm too busy doing other things but now and again i look around and go 'Yeuck!' and then i go on a mission.
My son is the laziest loafer around. Trying to get him to help around the house is like trying to convert Bush to Islam.
I have given up getting him to keep his room tidy. If he wants to live in a shit-hole that's up to him, as long as he keeps the door closed so the cockroaches and rats don't escape into the rest of the house.
He has painfully minimal chores to do around the house yet i still have to bark like a Sgt Major, or plead and beg or bribe and bully or contract a bull-dozer to get him to move.
If anybody's got any tips on how to motivate a 13 year old boy to do some fair share of chores i would be grateful.
I have tried the nice and sweet approach, and all i get is-
'ok I'll do it in a minute'
But that minute never comes!
Perhaps i should just give up
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| marnixR |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Cosmic Wizard
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 2433
Location: Cardiff, Wales
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on the back cover of the "mess" book there's a quote from einstein :
"if a cluttered desk is a sign of a clluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk ?"
a nice weapon when you want to ward off an attack by th tidiness brigade
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| Pendragon |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| marnixR wrote: |
on the back cover of the "mess" book there's a quote from einstein :
"if a cluttered desk is a sign of a clluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk ?" |
Brilliant! 
| Selene wrote: |
If anybody's got any tips on how to motivate a 13 year old boy to do some fair share of chores i would be grateful. |
I think the only thing that works is to make minimalistic rules that make sense. Like "when you see bugs or mold it's too dirty", and "if you don't keep it a little bit tidy I wont clean your room". The first one is a minimum requirement, the second one a choice: if you want me to help keep your room clean then you have to keep it tidy, if you don't need that then that's your choice.
I don't think you're as obsessed with cleanliness as "the typical woman", but you probably still value it higher than your son. If he's content with living in a mess then good for him 
Same with things like dishwashing. My parents do that twice a day, sometimes even 3 times. I do it about twice a week at my student room, sometimes even less. If they'd require me to help out with the dishes every time I'm home then I'd start dragging my feet too, it seems such an unnecessary waste of time. Try to work out a compromise that is acceptable for both sides. |
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| Selene |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Banned
Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 1060
Location: I live in Bertrand Russells teapot!
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| Pendragon wrote: |
I think the only thing that works is to make minimalistic rules that make sense. Like "when you see bugs or mold it's too dirty", and "if you don't keep it a little bit tidy I wont clean your room". The first one is a minimum requirement, the second one a choice: if you want me to help keep your room clean then you have to keep it tidy, if you don't need that then that's your choice.
I don't think you're as obsessed with cleanliness as "the typical woman", but you probably still value it higher than your son. If he's content with living in a mess then good for him
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I've tried many routes Pendragon including tying a noose around my neck and threatening to throw myself out of his bedroom window but all i get is,
'Shh mom i'm trying to chat to my mates here!' (on msn) or 'he's otherwise occupied with killing dwarves on WoW!
Sigh
I gave up cleaning his room long ago. I have the rest of the house to do! As far as i'm concerned his room is his den and i don't go in there anymore unless it's absolutely necessary.
Often when we have run out of cups and plates and i discover them festering and breeding the next generation of flies.
I bought him a good chemistry set for Christmas and i think that was a mistake with some of the same strange pongs that emanate and weird congealed masses of gloopy messes.
I know what you're thinking and now i am thinking it too and i shouldn't!
I don't nag. I'm a conscientious non-nagger. I know that doesn't work with the male species. It instantly switches them into that zombie glazed over mode or sends them off in a huff and the thing you nag about doesn't get done anyway.
The best way to approach a guy to do anything is wait patiently til they are in a good energetic happy mood and then you start with,
"I don't suppose you'd help me with................"
Whilst smiling sweetly
And throwing in a "Because you're stronger than me" is a good one
Guys just love to help a woman because they are stronger
It's a man thing isn't it?
I want to be lazy sometimes and not give a shit and let things heap up because it gets to me and bugs me. I can't relax if there's a sinkful of washing up.
I think that's because i know ultimately i've got to do it. There's nobody else to do it.
Maybe guys are lazy because they know someone else will do it for them?
Now i am waffling and sounding like my mother. I suppose i better go and make a mess somewhere..
sigh...it's good to sound off sometimes
sorry
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| Bunbury |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
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| I like the sign that says "The house was clean last week. Sorry you missed it." |
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| marnixR |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Cosmic Wizard
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 2433
Location: Cardiff, Wales
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there's a study by the National Study Group on Chronic Disorganisation, who created a list of the "Clutter Hoarding Scale" :
Level 1
Structure & Zoning Issues : all doors and stairways accessible
Pets & Rodents : normal household pet activity; 1-3 spills or pet accidents evident; light evidence of rodents / insects
Household Functions : clutter not excessive
Sanitation & Cleanliness : normal housekeeping; safe and healthy sanitation; no odors
Level 2
Structure & Zoning Issues : 1 exit blocked; 1 major appliance or regionally appropriate heating, cooling or ventilation device not working for longer than 6 months
Pets & Rodents : Some pet odor; cat spray or pet waste puddles; light pet dander in evidence; 3 or more incidents of feces in cat box; limited fish, reptile or bird pet care; light-to-medium evidence of common household rodents / insects
Household Functions : clutter inhibits use of more than two rooms; unclear functions of living room, bedroom; slight narrowing of household pathways
Sanitation & Cleanliness : limited evidence of housekeeping, vacuuming, sweeping; tolerable, but not pleasant, odors; overflowing garbage cans; light–to-medium mildew in bathroom or kitchen; moderately soiled food preparation surfaces
Level 3
Structure & Zoning Issues : visible clutter outdoors; items normally stored indoors evident outside (TV, sofa); 2 or more appliances broken or not functioning; inappropriate and/or excessive use of electric and extension cords; light structural damage limited to 1 part of home; recent (less than 6 months)
Pets & Rodents : pets exceed local Humane Society limits by 1–3 animals, excluding well-cared-for puppy or kitten litter less than 4 months old; stagnant fish tank; poorly maintained reptile aquarium; odor and waste; bird droppings not recently cleaned; audible, but not visible, evidence of rodents; light flea infestation; medium amount of spider webs inside house
Household Functions : visible clutter outdoors; narrowed hall and stair; 1 bathroom or bedroom not fully usable; i.e. items stored in shower; small amounts of 1–2 obviously hazardous substances, chemicals, substance spills, broken glass
Sanitation & Cleanliness : excessive dust; bed linens, including pillow, show evidence of dirt, long time use; no evidence of any recent vacuuming or sweeping; heavily soiled food preparation surfaces; obvious and irritating odor; unused, full or odorous garbage cans; dirty or soiled laundry throughout house, exceeding 3 hamper-size baskets per bedroom
Level 4
Structure & Zoning Issues : structural damage to part of home (longer than 6 months); mold or mildew on walls or floors; inappropriate use of appliance: storing paper in oven; storing nonfood items in refrigerator (beyond batteries, film); evidence of damage to 2 or more sections of wall board; faulty weather protection: deteriorated or ineffective waterproofing of exterior walls, roof, foundation or floors, including broken windows or doors; missing or damaged
gutters/downspouts; hazardous electrical wiring; odor or evidence of sewage backup
Pets & Rodents : pets exceed local Humane Society limits by 4 animals (any type); obvious aged animal waste exceeding 2–3 recent “accidents”; pet dander on all furnishings; pet has free range with evidence of destructive behavior, clawed furnishings, chewed doors or frame; excessive spiders and webs; bats, squirrels, raccoons in attic or room; flea infestation
Household Functions : designated bedroom unusable; using living area or sleeping on sofa or floor; hazardous materials stored inside of home, e.g. gasoline, aged, rusted and leaking paint or household chemical cans and bottles; excessive combustible and highly flammable packed material in living area or attached garage
Sanitation & Cleanliness : rotting food on counters; 1–15 aged canned goods with buckled tops and sides; no covers on beds, sleeping directly on mattress, lice on bedding or furnishings; no clean dishes or utensils locatable in kitchen
Level 5
Structure & Zoning Issues : structural damage obvious in home; broken walls; no electrical power, except for rural homes not serviced by power companies; no water connections; no sewer, septic system nonoperational; standing water in basement or room; fire hazard, hazardous material or contaminants storage exceeds local ordinances
Pets & Rodents : pets dangerous to occupants and/or guests; rodents evident and in sight; mosquito or insect infestations; regional “critter” infestations; i.e. snakes in interior of home
Household Functions : kitchen and bathroom unusable due to clutter; client sleeping elsewhere as house is not livable
Sanitation & Cleanliness : human defecation; rotting food; more than 15 aged canned goods with buckled tops and sides
slightly relieved that our slightly messy house still falls in category 1
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| sunshinewarrior |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| Selene wrote: |
And throwing in a "Because you're stronger than me" is a good one
Guys just love to help a woman because they are stronger
It's a man thing isn't it?
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I've noticed that I'm much more motivated to help on a project, than ongoing maintenance. A sort of "Why should I do it today when I'll just have to do it all over again tomorrow"... |
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| Selene |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:16 am Post subject: |
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Banned
Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 1060
Location: I live in Bertrand Russells teapot!
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| sunshinewarrior wrote: |
| Selene wrote: |
And throwing in a "Because you're stronger than me" is a good one
Guys just love to help a woman because they are stronger
It's a man thing isn't it?
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I've noticed that I'm much more motivated to help on a project, than ongoing maintenance. A sort of "Why should I do it today when I'll just have to do it all over again tomorrow"... |
That's true!
It is a bore this housework chore!
Years ago (when i was under the illusion of 'I'm going to be the perfect housewife syndrome'!) i used to spend ages making everything look spic & span, polishing taps so they gleemed, hoovering floors madly so not one spec or crumb was visible.
Yet it's a short lived cleanliness because within two days it's back to how it was!
The monotony of housework is soul destroying and can seriously damage your mental health, especially if you are obsessed with it and don't realise what a never ending battle it is!
Now i've developed a strategy to cleaning. I pretty much work from the top down.
I still have the urge whilst dusting to spend hours polishing every nick nack, but now i resist that urge
Level 1 - Pick up the obvious clutter, books, plates and wash up, making the place look tidy and organised.
Level 2 - just clean the surface areas, quick hoover living areas, dust, wipe etc
Level 3 - through cleaning such as mop floors, hoover stairs and the places that don't get daily clean
Level 4 - is intense cleaning which is more thorough but more irregular, like Hoover behind sofa & beds, clean kitchen cupboards down, inside fridge, clean windows, polish mirrors, get cobwebs etc.
I do either level depending on need and time, but suffice to say level 1 & 2 is usually all i have time for!
Marnix - I like your levels list, but euck! most of it sounds foul! Even level 1, if i found rat droppings I'd be horrified! And insects must mean the occasional dead fly on the window sill or fly poo on your lampshade. But if i found cockroaches i'd move!
I lived in a caravan for 6 years on a farm in Kent (i was hippy dippy barefoot picking strawberries not white flip flop bleached hair trailer trash!)
I tell you it was perfick! Housework amounted to a quick wipe and sweep. That's the trouble with houses, they are too big, there's too much area to get dirty 
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| pollutantofbeliefs |
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 24 May 2007
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| Sterilizing your house completely kills your immune system, so eventually when you come into contact with anything you'll be affected by it. |
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| Heliopolis |
| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| Cos we expect the females to clean up after us. |
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