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| DaBOB |
 Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: Health is just another fad... |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 1217
Location: Arsia Mons, Mars
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This is making me so MAD!!! It's like a person's health defects become a part of who they are. In particular are allergies. It's the TV. Those who watch it think their supposed to be sick and those who don't watch think their supposed to be sick because their friends (who do watch it) are!! It's all just stupid. People are alive. Living things heal on their own. Stop whining about all your problems and just get rid of them.
If you don't then one day we're all going to end up in some white padded suits because we're so damn fragile to do anything.
What inspired this rant? I have a friend. He gets the common cold like all of us and has had an occasional migraine. Besides that he's probably healthier than most these days. Then one day he discovers he has a corn allergy. So now he can't eat pretty much half of the stuff he used to. Now, some six years later, he's got a wheat allergy. WTH!?!?!?!? So what, it just appeared out of nowhere? What can you eat if you're allergic to corn and wheat? His doctor must have said: "Well you can either eat what you're allergic to or die of starvation."
No actually tons of people get this. If you read the websites on it you will hear things like "you may be suffering and not even know it". "Oh really, well maybe you should let me know so that I can suffer". This stuff makes me sick. I can't believe you all fall for this garbage.
I just heard of someone who is allergic to cinnamon. Who ever heard of that? Or how about this one; a raisin allergy. So if you're allergic to raisins does that make you allergic to grapes? Or maybe this person is so ignorant of their own health that they didn't make that connection. Maybe if they did they would be allergic to grapes as well. What if we told them that wine and wheat gluten require grapes. Will the be allergic to wine and bread? It's all just stupid.
I used to be like all of you. I would buy the nice running shoes and get the extra heal pads so my knees and heals would stop hurting. I would dislike certain foods and be allergic to others (e.i. shellfish, apricots, peaches, nectarines, walnuts, apples, pears, tomatoes, lettuce, I could go on). I was special, and I clung to this garbage because I didn't know of any other way and it gave me a sense of individuality. When I went to someone's house I could brag about how I couldn't eat tomatoes, when really I just didn't like them (ironically both excuses amount to the same problem).
I swear I could make an entire drug line of nothing but sugar pills and it would cure you all better or just as well as any other medication. It's you're poor sense of security that needs work. It's your lack of change. You wanting to be accepted. We're all just "approval junkies". We get high off of others loving us. And we get love by being special.
No one told me to stop living the "padded" life. It was simply a matter of observation. I began to wonder why it was I needed the padded heals. The body is "designed" to run without them. Why was I allergic to this stuff? Why did I not like the taste of things? Maybe instead of discriminating tastes as good or bad I should have discriminated them for what they were; salty, sweet, spicy, bitter, astringent, etc. Every taste is an acquired taste. The ones which have good experiences are acquired faster and easier... like pizza pockets and kiwi-strawberry soda.
Why was it that everyone loved the taste of cocacola but no-one liked the taste of liver? Yet the former is bad for you and the latter is not. It's because of their perception and the way in which they need to express themselves to feel accepted. They had a good time drinking cola with their friends but they had just finished a yelling match with their mother when she offered them the fresh cooked liver.
Everyone thinks that just because they've become an "adult" that they are somehow now immune to "peer pressure". The problem being that it is this exact thinking that gets them into trouble.
Well I could go on and on. The older members here probably recognize some of this but I only continue for your own good. Of course by saying all this it will probably be perceived by your egos as an insult and the very things I'm trying to stop will only be enforced; but maybe some of you will look past and see some truth in what I am trying to say.
"'Tis better to rain in hell than to serve in heaven." -John Milton
_________________
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." -- John 8:32
"The best mind-altering drug is truth. -Lily Tomlin
I claim to be a passionate seeker after the truth, which is but another name for God." -Gandhi
"...only try to realize the truth. There is no spoon." -Spoon boy |
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| BumFluff |
| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Canada
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Yes allergies can develop throughout your life. When you were young you may not have been allergic to the things you are today. I don't think healthy living is going to become old news anytime soon. Actually if it does anything it is going to increase as we make new discoveries and technology increases.
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"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" - Bertrand Russell |
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| DaBOB |
| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 1217
Location: Arsia Mons, Mars
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_________________
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." -- John 8:32
"The best mind-altering drug is truth. -Lily Tomlin
I claim to be a passionate seeker after the truth, which is but another name for God." -Gandhi
"...only try to realize the truth. There is no spoon." -Spoon boy |
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| BumFluff |
| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Canada
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| DaBOB wrote: |
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I was responding to this
| Quote: |
| WTH!?!?!?!? So what, it just appeared out of nowhere? |
My mom actually became allergic to wheat later in her life as well as well as a host of other things. If you'd like to continue with your eye rolls then please go ahead. I don't really understand what your original post was about aside from you being completely absorbed with your friends new found allergies. Vitamin pills and such are needed although they don't usually do much good unless they are taken with a meal. Were you aware that very few people in the world today take the recommended dosage of daily vitamins? In order to eat the recommended dosage of daily vitamins for your age and weight you'd probably have to eat about 4 full meals a day. Also the recommended dosage of daily vitamins is usually only about 2/3rds of what you should be taking.
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"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" - Bertrand Russell |
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| Bunbury |
| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 845
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| I used to be like all of you. |
No, you were nothing like me, so please stop assuming we are all the same. This stereotyping is very annoying.
| Quote: |
| It's like a person's health defects become a part of who they are. |
Very often they do, and it's unavoidable. With many illnesses you take the treatment or you die. This affects people profoundly, changes their lives, and not for the better.
| Quote: |
| Living things heal on their own. Stop whining about all your problems and just get rid of them. |
Living things often do not heal on their own. You are thinking about the common cold. Cancer doesn't heal itself.
Your rant would be more effective if it were not so broad-brushed. |
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| i_feel_tiredsleepy |
| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 21 Mar 2008
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| DaBob often disagrees with my opinions on immunology so I won't even bother. I just majored in it >.> |
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| DaBOB |
| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 1217
Location: Arsia Mons, Mars
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| BumFluff wrote: |
| Were you aware that very few people in the world today take the recommended dosage of daily vitamins? In order to eat the recommended dosage of daily vitamins for your age and weight you'd probably have to eat about 4 full meals a day. Also the recommended dosage of daily vitamins is usually only about 2/3rds of what you should be taking. |
I was aware. But I'm also aware that the body stores most of it's nutrients (fat soluble ones) so that you don't have to eat them everyday. Anyways, I'm not complaining about my health. I do fine on a diet primarily of veggies. I've no doubt that in my later years this won't do as well but I expect technology while have improved by then... if I feel the need to continue on that is.
| BumFluff wrote: |
| I don't really understand what your original post was about |
That's why I gave the eye roll. The point of the post was subtle and it will remain that way.
I respect my friend and he knows my opinion. The problem being (as I originally said) is that it is generally impossible to impose my opinion on others, which is why I generally don't post like this... but it was bothering me more and more so I thought I'd try yet again. Of course I respect that we all have our own choices and that someone else's choices are their own business; it just disturbs me to see them in a state I believe they can be relieved from.
| Bunbury wrote: |
| No, you were nothing like me |
I disagree. Our modern cultures promote individuality but it is an illusion. The people of today (myself included) suffer from the same problems as the people thousands of years ago. It is the reason religion has lasted for so long, and will likely last forever. All living things that we know of share the same basic structure of the double helix. Except for a virus, but then it wouldn't be "alive" if it weren't for us (and it's RNA structure is still similar). No matter what your beliefs you can't argue that you were the product of your parents and their parents and, eventually, of the species and life itself (not that we really know what that is).
Pardon my Taoism.
| Bunbury wrote: |
| This affects people profoundly, changes their lives, and not for the better. |
Unless their illness inspires them to health. But in most cases you are probably right.
| Bunbury wrote: |
| Living things often do not heal on their own. You are thinking about the common cold. Cancer doesn't heal itself. |
No, I'm talking about living things. Tell me a time that we know of where life has ceased to exist. It always manages to continue. I would argue that the simulation we live in is a result of ourselves. Cancer doesn't heal itself. However, cancer is always happening. DNA is constantly bombarded by and array of antagonists. If it is damaged and then replicated than it becomes cancerous. When the body finds a foreign cell that is replicating too fast or is somehow mutated it kills it. The problem comes when the cancer spreads faster than it can be fought.
Generally this happens when a person becomes stagnant and board with life. Sometimes it inspires them and they are healed and sometimes they are not.
| Bunbury wrote: |
| Your rant would be more effective if it were not so broad-brushed. |
I'm too young to write a book.
| i_feel_tiredsleepy wrote: |
| I just majored in it >.> |
I'd be careful throwing that around. I've tutored many on these subjects who have achieved better grades than I.
I have nothing to prove. I'll leave that to the immunologists.
I'm just a regular Joe with a regular job.
Besides, the point of my post was not related to immunology; at least not directly.
For the most part I look forward to all of your feedback. 'tis why I'm here.
_________________
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." -- John 8:32
"The best mind-altering drug is truth. -Lily Tomlin
I claim to be a passionate seeker after the truth, which is but another name for God." -Gandhi
"...only try to realize the truth. There is no spoon." -Spoon boy |
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| BumFluff |
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| DaBOB wrote: |
I was aware. But I'm also aware that the body stores most of it's nutrients (fat soluble ones) so that you don't have to eat them everyday. |
There are only certain types of nutrients that the body can store. Carotenoids are one of them because they float around in the blood stream until they are needed by the body and then broken down into vitamin A. On the other hand vitamins such as the B vitamins as well as several other kinds merely pass right through your system if they are not needed by it. You can actually overdose on many types of vitamins as well which is the reason the majority of doctors recommend that you don't take any vitamin specific pills if you don't need them specifically. They recommend you taking daily vitamins with a meal.
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"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" - Bertrand Russell |
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| spuriousmonkey |
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:32 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 12 May 2005
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There does seem to be a reluctance to accept any physical discomfort in the modern society. And I did see many examples of people who thought they were allergic to a certain kind of food and then turned out not to be allergic to it at all. People ask me why I bicycle to work when it rains. Why not? Are we not allowed to get wet any more?
People will go through great lengths to fit into society. It's the nature of the beast. Some allergies are not made up and show rather acute symptoms. Others are more mild.
The medical industry is an industry. Not all the actions of the medical industry are aimed at improving health or preventing disease. The motive of generating profit or income will never cease to be a powerful one in a capitalist society.
Regarding the authority comment from one of the posters. Having a major in something doesn't mean you are right. It's the authority argument. Moreover assuming a person is wrong because he was wrong before can also be classified as a logical fallacy.
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“A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere heart of stone.” |
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| Robbie |
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:20 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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DaBob, with no disrespect I feel you have been ranting somewhat in your posts, in order to pin down what this thread is about, can I ask, are you arguing...
(i) against the existence of allergies?
(ii) the marketing of drugs to the public?
(iii) peoples interpretation of ficticious conditions a a marker of personal identity, you gave the example of tomato allergy?
I agree with you on the final two points, as people can portray the sick role & the drug companies do certainly exacerbate the problem. "Health" as such is not a fad however as you mention in your title.
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| i_feel_tiredsleepy |
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:19 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 659
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| spuriousmonkey wrote: |
There does seem to be a reluctance to accept any physical discomfort in the modern society. And I did see many examples of people who thought they were allergic to a certain kind of food and then turned out not to be allergic to it at all. People ask me why I bicycle to work when it rains. Why not? Are we not allowed to get wet any more?
People will go through great lengths to fit into society. It's the nature of the beast. Some allergies are not made up and show rather acute symptoms. Others are more mild.
The medical industry is an industry. Not all the actions of the medical industry are aimed at improving health or preventing disease. The motive of generating profit or income will never cease to be a powerful one in a capitalist society.
Regarding the authority comment from one of the posters. Having a major in something doesn't mean you are right. It's the authority argument. Moreover assuming a person is wrong because he was wrong before can also be classified as a logical fallacy. |
He's saying the same thing he always says though, it's not that I'm assuming he's wrong because he was wrong before, but that he is wrong because he has been wrong before about the same thing. In previous threads, I have pointed out how specific IgE is a measurable objective truth of allergies existence, and can even be predicative of future allergies.
Schoefer et al. (2008) "Predictivity of allergic sensitization (RAST) for the onset of allergic diseases in adults" Allergy 63 (1): 81-6
Although, a person can have psychosomatic disorders, this doesn't mean that the entirity of allergic disease is a matter of state of mind. The truth is that the mechanism of allergic disease has tons of research written on it, and not a single paper has been published (that I know of) that supports DaBob's view.
Edit: Note that all of DaBob's arguments are based on his untrained opinion of personal experience. |
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| DaBOB |
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 1217
Location: Arsia Mons, Mars
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| BumFluff wrote: |
| There are only certain types of nutrients that the body can store. Carotenoids are one of them because they float around in the blood stream until they are needed by the body and then broken down into vitamin A. On the other hand vitamins such as the B vitamins as well as several other kinds merely pass right through your system if they are not needed by it. You can actually overdose on many types of vitamins as well which is the reason the majority of doctors recommend that you don't take any vitamin specific pills if you don't need them specifically. They recommend you taking daily vitamins with a meal. |
I believe that you cannot overdose on Carotenoids but you can on Vitamin A. The Carotine can be stored in the skin whereas the broken down vitamin A can cause liver damage in excess. And yes, as I recall, the B Vitamins and Vitamin C are the ones that generally don't stick around. I've actually read of studies that people who take 2,000mg (I think that's the right unit) a day live longer than those who take more or less. However, I have a hard time putting any value on these studies because my source did not explain how the study was conducted. For example, it could be that people who are so precise about their dosage are also precise about a healthy diet and lots of oversize.
I could see supplementation for someone older or suffering from some type of illness but as for me it is unnecessary. Forgive my traditionalist nature but the fresher the better in my opinion. I don't want to start eating "matrix snot" until there's nothing else left.
| spuriousmonkey wrote: |
| People ask me why I bicycle to work when it rains. Why not? Are we not allowed to get wet any more? |
You are not alone my friend. Well, maybe in your city. Then again it may be important to point out that all this fossil fuel use makes the rain more dangerous, and it is falling on your head. But hey it's not like we're smoking or something.
I just got a new job further from home and had a bit of a hip injury so I haven't been commuting on the bike for about a month. I'll have to start back up; I think it's an hour both ways though. May take a little rehabilitation.
| spuriousmonkey wrote: |
| The medical industry is an industry. Not all the actions of the medical industry are aimed at improving health or preventing disease. The motive of generating profit or income will never cease to be a powerful one in a capitalist society. |
Right you are. The TCM and others are often regarded as quacks but the real trouble is when someone leaves one quack for another. People try to take advantage of each other in all professions.
I love those TV advertisments that go something like: "Are you suffering from depression? Come in today and be tested to see if you suffer from depression. You may qualify for an experimental new drug...."
"Oh, sure, I'll come in so that someone else can tell me I'm depressed. I'm not sure how I could possibly recognize it on my own. And if I am than it's probably not worth seeking the comfort of friends and family or maybe seeing a psychiatrist. No, I should definitely join this revolutionary new study."
So much for informed consent. The entire American population is just a big concentration camp for performing biological tests on unaware subjects.
| Robbie wrote: |
are you arguing...
(i) against the existence of allergies?
(ii) the marketing of drugs to the public?
(iii) peoples interpretation of ficticious conditions a[s] a marker of personal identity, you gave the example of tomato allergy? |
Well I suppose a little of everything. Yet none are about the main points I was making.
(i) With respect to i_feel_tiredsleepy my opinions on this are my own and a few others I have met in my life. I believe the manifestation of allergies are quite real and that they very possibly were caused or born from an allergen. My opinion being that, do to the conscious nature of ourselves, any allergy can be rid of by including it in the diet and consciously setting aside whatever attachment it previously had as an allergen. I've gone into this far too often here so that's about all I'll say as it is not the direct goal of my post.
(ii)I believe there is a problem with the marketing of drugs. But, my goal was more about the susceptibility of the public. When I referred to health as a fad, I wasn't speaking of "being healthy" but more of " health trends". One of these trends being wheat allergies. You follow along what's in the commercials and listen to the hearsay advice and you hear all about this stuff. Wheat has been around for quit a while and I know of no ancient texts that speak of wheat allergies. It's not just wheat however; the trend is allergies in general. People wouldn't even know of these allergies if they never took their test and they'd be fine with that.
As I've described before, I did take my test. Things I knew I was allergic to weren't on it and things I didn't know were. It was so stupid. After a few years I got sick of not eating shellfish, and peaches so I started eating them (along with everything else on the list) and was fine. I've never had any allergic reactions since.
[iii]I'm not saying that conditions are wholly fictitious. Whatever the pathway is these people are definitely suffering a reaction as a result of eating the allergen. I believe some are brought on by the mind and some are simply accepted and that either way they can be rid of.
Every single thought you have effects your body in some way. And repeated thoughts can have exponential effects. And studies have shown this.
To take it a step further I would ask were these thoughts come from. So maybe, it's not the thoughts causing the illness or the illness causing the thoughts but instead the environment or paradigm resulting in both. I would like to suggest that thoughts and illness arrive from the same place. A place which, as of yet, is unknown.
So I hope I cleared up the "health as a fad" thing. I'm not saying that being healthy is a fad but that health recommendations, illnesses, fitness ideas, etc. follow trends and people as a whole seem to follow these trends like lemmings.
My second and possibly more important point I was trying to make was in the quote I put by John Milton. It reflects on the trend aspect but also covers a much broader range of subjects. Maybe this post should have started in the philosophy room. But then again it wouldn't have reached this point.
Maktub.
_________________
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." -- John 8:32
"The best mind-altering drug is truth. -Lily Tomlin
I claim to be a passionate seeker after the truth, which is but another name for God." -Gandhi
"...only try to realize the truth. There is no spoon." -Spoon boy |
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| i_feel_tiredsleepy |
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 659
Location: Montreal
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| Well I'll just say Coeliac disease, which is a gluten intollerance (gluten being found in wheat) was first described by Aretaeus during the second century AD. Although, this forum of wheat allergy is routed in genetic predisposition and is pretty rare outside of ethnic Jewish communities. |
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| DaBOB |
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 1217
Location: Arsia Mons, Mars
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This brings up something else as well. What my friend told me is that he has a "wheat allergy". Maybe he has a Gluten intolerance which I would have a whole other opinion on but he probably doesn't even know the difference. I worked in grocery for a while and I would notice this so often. People come in saying they can't eat something and don't even know what their talking about. I show the the wheat free stuff and the gluten free stuff and they get all confused. Whenever I get an illness or even feel the slightest onset of something abnormal I do what I can to understand it. It's beyond me how someone cannot notice these things. I guess I just have different priorities.
Have you ever noticed that the majority of vegans are also gluten intolerant; or maybe the majority of people with gluten intolerance are vegan (all I know is there is a definite relationship). It's an odd irony in my mind.
_________________
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." -- John 8:32
"The best mind-altering drug is truth. -Lily Tomlin
I claim to be a passionate seeker after the truth, which is but another name for God." -Gandhi
"...only try to realize the truth. There is no spoon." -Spoon boy |
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| BumFluff |
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Senior
Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Canada
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| DaBOB wrote: |
| BumFluff wrote: |
| There are only certain types of nutrients that the body can store. Carotenoids are one of them because they float around in the blood stream until they are needed by the body and then broken down into vitamin A. On the other hand vitamins such as the B vitamins as well as several other kinds merely pass right through your system if they are not needed by it. You can actually overdose on many types of vitamins as well which is the reason the majority of doctors recommend that you don't take any vitamin specific pills if you don't need them specifically. They recommend you taking daily vitamins with a meal. |
I believe that you cannot overdose on Carotenoids but you can on Vitamin A. The Carotine can be stored in the skin whereas the broken down vitamin A can cause liver damage in excess. And yes, as I recall, the B Vitamins and Vitamin C are the ones that generally don't stick around. I've actually read of studies that people who take 2,000mg (I think that's the right unit) a day live longer than those who take more or less. However, I have a hard time putting any value on these studies because my source did not explain how the study was conducted. For example, it could be that people who are so precise about their dosage are also precise about a healthy diet and lots of oversize.
I could see supplementation for someone older or suffering from some type of illness but as for me it is unnecessary. Forgive my traditionalist nature but the fresher the better in my opinion. I don't want to start eating "matrix snot" until there's nothing else left.
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The person who you are speaking about taking over 2000mg a day was Linus Pauling. He was a staunch supporter of high dosage vitamin C to cure colds and cancer however his claims were later retracted his claims. Recently however that same idea has begun to rise again through other sources. Another interesting fact: polar bear liver will kill a human being because it contains something like 20,000mg of pure vitamin A.
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"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" - Bertrand Russell |
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