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| Joe(Oh) |
 Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: Evangelistic Christians have it wrong when it comes to... |
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...Heaven and hell-
Scripturally speaking, it clearly states in Eccl 9:5 and Eccl 9:10 that when someone dies, they goto a dreamless sleep and remain until judgement day when all former "living souls" (Gen 2:7) raise up from the grave where they sleep.
Many EC's (Evangel Christians) claim that the moment you die you either goto the kingdom of heaven (Also another misnomer) or burn forever and ever in everlasting hellfire when in scripture this is clearly not so.
There are actually THREE hells according to the old testament.
1) Sheol: The grave for man
2) Tartaroo: Prison for the renegade angels
3) Gehenna: The fire that burns souls from the inside out until they are turned to ash and exists no more.
Go ahead and poke around for those three terms. Interesting stuff considering how scripturally inaccruate it is. It sickens me that so many people are being scared into being "saved" and they dont even know what they are exactly "saved" from.
What a hoot-
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| mitchellmckain |
| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Evangelistic Christians have it wrong when it comes to.. |
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| Joe(Oh) wrote: |
There are actually THREE hells according to the old testament.
1) Sheol: The grave for man
2) Tartaroo: Prison for the renegade angels
3) Gehenna: The fire that burns souls from the inside out until they are turned to ash and exists no more.
Go ahead and poke around for those three terms. Interesting stuff considering how scripturally inaccruate it is. It sickens me that so many people are being scared into being "saved" and they dont even know what they are exactly "saved" from.
What a hoot- |
What a hoot indeed. So you have no problem with this intellectual blackmail crap but have so bought into this crap yourself that you just want to make sure the threats are accurate? LOL LOL LOL
| Joe(Oh) wrote: |
Evangelistic Christians have it wrong when it comes to Heaven and hell-
Scripturally speaking, it clearly states in Eccl 9:5 and Eccl 9:10 that when someone dies, they goto a dreamless sleep and remain until judgement day when all former "living souls" (Gen 2:7) raise up from the grave where they sleep.
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So during the transfiguration when Jesus was visited by Moses and Elijah, were they yawning and wiping sleep from their eyes? I guess that could work for you. But you will forgive me if I disagree with you absolutely. So in your way of thinking or whatever you call it, I wonder what happens to the cremated or to those whose atoms at death can now be found in the living.
Do you sell graveyard plots?
| Joe(Oh) wrote: |
Many EC's (Evangel Christians) claim that the moment you die you either goto the kingdom of heaven (Also another misnomer) or burn forever and ever in everlasting hellfire when in scripture this is clearly not so.
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You are probably right about many making such a claim. But this Evangelical Christian most certainly does not claim any such thing. But then I don't buy into your sleeping in the graveyard theory either.
Furthermore, I don't believe that any of this is ocurring in the space and time of this universe. So this talk about waiting for some eschatological event does not make much sense to me. Nor do I believe that the eschatological hopes for mankind on this earth have anything to do with those who have died. Maybe you think that there is some future event when the earth turns into one big sardine can for everyone who has ever lived while some weird deity sorts among them for the keepers and disposes of those he doesn't like, but I do not.
But perhaps you can see the Evangelical in me, in that I do think judement is immediate which is just another way of saying that it is ongoing because it is we by our own choices that judge ourselves. So what I see of the hereafter is two paths: one comfortable, pleasant and easy, and the other uncomfortable, unpleasant and difficult. I see ourselves confronted with choosing between them, both right now and then as well. Those who choose the pleasant path might well be described as being asleep - but asleep is pretty much what they have been most of their life. Indeed it is one of my maxims is that death changes nothing. Well it changes very little. It does remove the friction - both the resitance to our will and the traction needed in order to change directions. The difference between heaven and hell right after death is not where we are at the moment but where we are heading of our own free will and choice.
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Last edited by mitchellmckain on Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:55 am; edited 2 times in total |
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| Joe(Oh) |
| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Its funny how everyone wants to say what they 'believe' but not whats in the scripture. I'm not saying that the bible is true, I'm just stating what is there. Do I believe in the book? Not really. I've seen wonders that I may get around to posting here in a different thread. But for now, I'll just focus on scriptual accuracy as talking points, not as something that I may or not believe in.
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| mitchellmckain |
| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe(Oh) wrote: |
| Its funny how everyone wants to say what they 'believe' but not whats in the scripture. I'm not saying that the bible is true, I'm just stating what is there. Do I believe in the book? Not really. I've seen wonders that I may get around to posting here in a different thread. But for now, I'll just focus on scriptual accuracy as talking points, not as something that I may or not believe in. |
Welcome. I get a real kick out of atheist theologians (if that is what you are); I find them very amusing.
Copies of the Bible are plentiful so if all we want, is to see what is there, what need do we have of you? None. You speak here because despite your pretenses, you have your particular interpretation to sell just like everyone else. I do not indulge in this pretentious activity of "telling everyone what the Bible says", instead I share with complete sincerity what it is that I get out of the Bible on a take it or leave it basis. I claim no authority. People can read the Bible for themselves and make up their own minds. And that is what it means when I say that I believe in the Bible: NOT that I can speak for God by taking passages of it out of context, but that it is to the Bible which I will point as the living word of God Himself.
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| (Q) |
| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| mitchellmckain wrote: |
| I claim no authority. ... but that it is to the Bible which I will point as the living word of God Himself. |
As is the words of Grimm's and Aesop to them.
Mitchell will state the above and then claim in another fell swoop of his mighty keyboard he only believes in certain parts of the bible, that which suits his own personal agenda and beliefs. |
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| mitchellmckain |
| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| (Q) wrote: |
Mitchell will state the above and then claim in another fell swoop of his mighty keyboard he only believes in certain parts of the bible, that which suits his own personal agenda and beliefs. |
But of course. If I do not indulge in this pretentious activity of "telling everyone what the Bible says", it is because I have absolutely no intension of crediting anyone else who does so. I claim no authority because I recognize no such authority in anyone else either. I say that people can read the Bible for themselves and make up their own mind, because that is what I will do. And this means that I believe in the Bible because I will let no one including myself substitute their own interpretation for it, for I will not credit their pretense of speaking for God by quoting its passages to support their interpretation.
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| Joe(Oh) |
| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Great, another one of these "I'm not gonna be told what is what" even though there is scripture CLEARLY CLEARLY CLEARLY stating what happens to a dead person.
Read it, Eccl 9:5, Eccl 9:10, Gen 2:7, Psalms 146:4, and Dan 12:2.
In the verse John 3:16, what does the word "perish" mean to you? It's the last word in that verse.
Btw, I am NOT an atheist by any means, I know there is a god and otherworldly things....I'll get into with another completely different thread....if I want to-
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| mitchellmckain |
| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe(Oh) wrote: |
Great, another one of these "I'm not gonna be told what is what" even though there is scripture CLEARLY CLEARLY CLEARLY stating what happens to a dead person.
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Great another one of these people who are so willful they cannot see anything except that which they expect to see, chanting it repeatedly to convince themselves.
But maybe you are not just a hypocrite and that you are ready to be told what is what, yourself. So lets find out. I will play the role of teller and see what you do about it. But most often those who make this complaint loudest are usually just those who just want to tell others and not to be told themselves.
So in playing this role of teller, I will have to set aside my dislike for this habit of cutting pieces from Bible, to some degree. But let me make it clear ahead of time that I do not make any ridiculous claim that these pasages lend authority to my words, and I shall endeavor as much as I can to put them back in context. Furthermore I do not dare to say what they mean in any exclusive manner, but instead to simply share with you the meaning I find in them. I feel this is very important because the former cuts them down to a dead tool for use but the latter simply shows how the word of God is alive and breathing meaning into my life as a demonstration that it can do so for you as well.
| Joe(Oh) wrote: |
In the verse John 3:16, what does the word "perish" mean to you? It's the last word in that verse.
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"For God so loved the world that he gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."
I can tell you right away what "perish" obviously does not refer to, and that is physical death. The stories of Jesus who is firstborn, makes it clear that in His resurrection He is not subject to the phsyical laws of this world and 1 Cor 15 makes it clear that this is because His resurrection is to a "spritual body" which is immune to the decay that comes from the laws of nature. In fact it explains that the physical body is but a seed from which this spirit body grows.
There is much more that is interesting in this passage. There is the fact that the object of God's concern is the whole world and it is the whole world that God seeks to save. There is also the fact that this passage says that He will not do this work of salvation through condemnation. Because if you read through John 3:21 it is clear that condemnation comes though our own actions and choices. All through the old Testament God repeats that He has set before us both blessing and curse, light and darkness, life and death, and therefore we should chose the former of these things (i.e. life, light and God's blessing).
| Joe(Oh) wrote: |
Gen 2:7 --> Gen2:7-17
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"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
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You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree o fthe knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day you eat of it you shall die."
Here too we see many things. We are formed of matter and yet God has breathed something of Himself into us that gives us life - the divine breath - inspiration. It says that Adam is free to eat of every other tree in the Garden and this means that the tree of life was not forbidden to Adam until after what Adam and Eve did. So why is that? ...and why did Adam not eat of the tree of life when he had the chance? Furthermore, are we really to believe that God desired Adam and Eve to have no understanding of difference between good and evil. Did Adam and Eve actually show that they had gained such knowledge? This story may be historical, and I believe it is, but a literal interpretation makes no sense at all.
But back to the topic of death: what is abundantly clear is that there is more than one meaning to life and death in the Bible for God said that Adam would die on the day he ate of the fruit, but he contined to live. Thus we must conclude that either God lied or there is more than one kind of life. This becomes quite apparent in the many words of Jesus, such as "Let the dead bury their own dead" in Matt 8:22, which makes no sense unless there are two meanings of dead here. Matthew 16:26 is also quite suggestive for it is too obvious that gaining the whole world is pointless if you die in the process, which is why many translations replace the word "life" with "soul" even though this is not supported by the original Greek. But if there is more than one kind of death (and thus more than one kind of life) then this makes perfect sense. In other words, all these passages suggests that in addition to physical death which is a natural part of life there is also a spiritual death - a death of the soul, which is such a more terrible thing than physical death, and this is what makes God's warning in the Garden a truth rather than a lie.
| Joe(Oh) wrote: |
Psalms 146:4 ---> the whole of Psalm 146
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"Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord, O my soul! I will praise the Lord as long as I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have being. Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his plans perish. Happy is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the Lord his God, who made heaven and earth, the sea and all that is in them; who keeps faith for ever; who executes justice for the oppressed; who gives food to the hungry. The Lord sets the prisoners fee; the Lord opens the eyes of the blind. The Lord lifts up those who are bowed down; the Lord loves the righteous. The Lord watches over the sojourners, he upholds the widow and the fatherless; but the way of the wicked he brings to ruin."
Your passage taken out of context was to explain how shortsighted it is to put our trust in men of power on this earth for all such power will pass away so none of their promises have any lasting value. Therefore we should put our trust in a God whose power and ability to help us will never pass away. But then our question must be, when are all these promises fulfilled? Immediately? Clearly not. Only in the far future? What a sterile promise! I think the answer is neither of these, because Jesus made it clear that the kingdom of heaven is both here and now and in the future. So the correct answer is that God's promises are fullfilled all the time, but in their own time. So since it is clear that such promises to the individual are often not perfected in life then the work of God to fulfill such promises must continue after physical death.
| Joe(Oh) wrote: |
Read it, Eccl 9:5, ---> whole book of Ecclesiastes
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"Vanity of vanities! All is vanity.
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I said to myself, 'I have acquired great wisdom, surpassing all who were over Jerusalem before me; and my mind has had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.' And I applied my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly. I percieved that this also is but a striving after wind.
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But all this I laid to heart, examining it all, how the righteous and the wise and their deeds are in the hand of God; whether it is love or hate man does not know. Everything before them is vanity, since one fate comes to all, to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil, to the clean and the unclean, to him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As is the good man, so is the sinner and he who swears is as he who shuns an oath. Thus is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that one fate comes to all; also the hearts of men are full of evil and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing, and have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost. There love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun. Go and eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has already approved what you do. Let your garments be always white; let not oil be lacking on your head. Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your vain life which he has given you under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.
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For if a man lives many years, let him rejoice in them all; but let him remember that the days of darkness will be many. All that comes is vanity.
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The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments; for this is th whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgement, with every secret thing, whether good or evil."
The book of Ecclesiastes is a surprising book of the Bible and it seems speak to the limitations of knowledge and reason and to the very often depressing realities of life. The particular passage you point out simply speaks of one such reality, which is that death is inescapable. So what is all this vanity that the book speaks of? I think it is our tendency to imagine that we are in control or that we have somehow earned or deserved the good things in life, for it is the authors final conclusion that we must fear God and seek to obey His will, for there is nothing we can do to keep anything hidden from God, and all our great accomplishments are nothing with which we can purchase an escape from judgement.
| Joe(Oh) wrote: |
Dan 12:2. --> Daniel chapter 12
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"At that time shall arise Michael the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since thre was a nation till that time; but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book. and many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. But you, Daniel shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.
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I heard but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord what shall be the issue of these things? He said, Go your way Daniel, for the words are shut up nd sealed until the time of the end. Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand."
The eschatological books of Daniel and Revelations are so full of symbolism that they are hard to approach in any rational manner, and if they are speaking of the future as it seems then that makes it hard to see their relevance to the living of our lives. But expansion of your reference to the whole chapter does include some interesting things. This shutting of the book and this declaration that the wicked shall not understand, suggests to me that this prophesying of the future is not a fruitful direction to pursue. The righteous will shut the book and focus on purifing themselves and seeking righteousness regardless of what may come, but the wicked in seeking to anticipate the future will mis-understand and be undone by their mistakes.
| Joe(Oh) wrote: |
Btw, I am NOT an atheist by any means, I know there is a god and otherworldly things....I'll get into with another completely different thread....if I want to-
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You are right! So the question is whether you might be anti-theist instead, which has nothing to do with whether you believe in God but rather how you respond to the beliefs of others. For it is the condemnation of others that believe differently that is the source of so much evil in the world, whether it is by the Christians in the Crusades, by the Nazis in the Holocost, or by the Communists in the greatest destruction of human life that the world has ever seen. This is not an accusation but a question for you to answer.
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| Joe(Oh) |
| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Good gravy marine you like to goto great lengths to twist and twist and twist the meanings of the verses I gave you. Denial is the stink of desperation for those who hope in vain. Stop making excuses and funky interpretations and just read the text for what is it.
I'm not saying the bible is right OR wrong. Just be accurate to your faith within reasonable means.
Just because I claim (and as far as you guys are concerned, it's just a claim) that I know for a fact whats up, doesnt negate your chosen faith. Just because I know of things, does that void your faith? No. It doesnt work that way. So you can relax on that.
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| daytonturner |
| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: |
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Joe(Oh) seems to be using the same logic that atheists use in analyzing the Bible.
Here is a book which Joe does not know if it accurate or inaccurate, whether it is right or wrong, whether it can be believed or not. And then he attempts to use it to prove his points. If the Bible is unreliable, it certainly has no authority to validate or invalidate Joe's personal understandings of the verses he claims support his personal theology.
The Bible may be ambiguous such that we cannot fully decypher what may exist in the economy of eternity, it is specific enough to point out that here is something beyond the confines of our time, space, matter continuum. It is very possible that we are incapable of even grasping what a non-time, space, matter continuum can be like since we are confined to thinking in terms of time and space and matter.
The Bible seems obvious, in relation to eternity, that God is in charge of some of it and God is absent from some of it. And it is also obvious from the Bible that spending eternity in that part which is inhabited by God will be far better than spending eternity in that part which is not inhabited by God.
Sometimes when one attempts to narrowly define some of this stuff, the big picture gets lost.
The Bible stories of people in heaven or hell, do not depict people who are asleep. Sleep is merely one way the Bible euphamistically describes physical death. And this type of multiple meaning for a word such as sleep is one of those things that God has designed to confound the wise.
I see this as a problem of some post-modernist thinking in which the words of the Bible are being interpreted according to the reader's current-day, literal meanings of the words rather than investigating what they meant to the writers.
Communications break down when we are more more focused what we can read into something rather than what the person who said it was trying to say.
Some of these topics are a merely rabbit trails which keep us from focusing on the real issue at hand. I mean, who in the hell cares whether we are temporarily "asleep" or actively participating in our eternity? Well, probably the people in hell care.
I think it far more important to insure which part of eternity one ends up in than in what state they will exist between death and judgment day.
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If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005 |
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| Joe(Oh) |
| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Here is the "Logic" used by EC's:
1) If you dont interpret the bible the way it makes us feel comfortable you dont understand it!
2) If you interpret the bible in its near-literal/literal meaning that means you are reading the scripture and are NOT supposed to read it at all!
3) If you prove our interpretations incorrect or inaccurate YOU HATE OUR RELIGION!
~fin
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| mitchellmckain |
| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe(Oh) wrote: |
Here is the "Logic" used by EC's:
1) If you dont interpret the bible the way it makes us feel comfortable you dont understand it!
2) If you interpret the bible in its near-literal/literal meaning that means you are reading the scripture and are NOT supposed to read it at all!
3) If you prove our interpretations incorrect or inaccurate YOU HATE OUR RELIGION!
~fin |
Wow this guy is as rich in making real life illustrations as Q is. He tells us about a certain kind of "logic" and demonstrates a perfect example of it in what he says. And as a bonus, that makes this guy a wonderful illustration of all of Jesus' words about hypocrites. He shows quite clearly to us all why the Bible gives us some very wise advise not to judge others, because the human reality is one of tremendous fumble footedness due to the logs in our own eyes which causes us to fail to see the fact of just how guilty we ourselves are of the judgments we pronounce upon others.
We are very sorry if our "putting passages back into their context" approach to interpreting the Bible makes you feel so uncomfortable that you feel compelled to describe such as "great lengths to twist the meanings of the verses" when you "CLEARLY CLEARLY CLEARLY" know that they really mean what you have been told that they mean. We know that this approach of actually reading the Bible may seem "lengthy" to you, and that dealing with all the apparent contradictions that you would prefer to ignore can seem very "twisty" to you, but we want to assure you that this effort is really worth it because the Bible really is the living word of God if you let it live in you, instead of making it say what you have been told.
And thank you for the very humorous joke you make by suggesting that you only interpret the Bible literally. Next you will be telling us that Adam died and was resurrected on the day he ate the fruit and that the dead climb out of their graves to bury dead people. However the one thing that I truly can believe is that you really do believe in a god that does not want you to have any knowledge, wisdom or understanding about the difference between good and evil. The god of this world probably doesn't want you to have these things, and probably wants you to believe that death is the end as well. Well we all have to make choices in life and if you choose to follow such a god then I wish you well, for I will not follow that way. I keep my eyes on a different God, the one for whom power and knowledge was of so little account compared to His love for the world that he laid it all down to become a helpless infant, to share our lives and our difficulties and to show us that we can be victorious and that death does not have to prevail against us.
Be assured that although I have proven your interpretation incorrect, I do not hate your religion, because unlike so many religions and pseudo-Chrisitian groups, I believe that God works in the lives of all people and in their religion too, even and maybe especially in the atheists as well to teach us what is superficial, irrational, exploitive, manipulative and hypocritical religion so that people will abandon them for what is less superficial, more rational, less manipulative and more sincere. I am confident that God has a purpose for you and your religion as well. I hope that you are ready as I am to serve His will even if it is to be the fool by which people will learn what is the wrong way to go. For it is not my glory which I yearn for but His.
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| daytonturner |
| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe(Oh) wrote: |
Here is the "Logic" used by EC's:
1) If you dont interpret the bible the way it makes us feel comfortable you dont understand it!
2) If you interpret the bible in its near-literal/literal meaning that means you are reading the scripture and are NOT supposed to read it at all!
3) If you prove our interpretations incorrect or inaccurate YOU HATE OUR RELIGION! |
Good thing you are not in a three-strikes-and-you're-out forum.
1) Most ECs (and that does not include the wonderful, hunky-dory, He's-here-to serve you type of preaching such as Joel Osteen) think that if some of your interpretation of the Bible makes them feel comfortable, it is probably wrong but that maybe you do understand it.
2) Literal as to the Bible means taking into account the literary style in which the passage was written. Literal also means an understanding of what the words meant to the writer, not what the English translation means to people today. You cannot even read Shakespeare literally unless you understand Elizabethan English. Atheists love their version of literal interpretation making the Bible silly such as insisting "day" in Genesis means a 24-hour period when day is often used to refer to an age of time both in their language as well as in today's English. It is like the term 40 days which also stands for an indefinite period of time which is probably more than a couple of weeks but less than, perhaps, a quarter.
3) Well, first of all, you have to "prove" that traditional interpretations are incorrect or inaccurate and that the errors significantly affect the overall teaching of the Bible. I am not sure to what extent, Joe(Oh) thinks he has "disproved" some traditional interpretation as being inaccurate or how that inaccuracy might influence the book as a whole. The truth here is that when we show you your errors, you then hate our religion, preferring to cling to your own errors.
I have no idea what Joe(Oh)'s relationship with God is, but his relationship with the Bible is somewhat shakey.
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If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005 |
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| mitchellmckain |
| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 1968
Location: Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
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Joe(Oh)
As you can hopefully see you are facing two very different Evangelical Christians here. Your broad brush treatment of such an diverse and varied group is bound to make you look a little silly.
Anyway I can assure you that your battle tank approach (keeping your religious affilliations/commitments/sentiments hidden safe out of view) only increases my perception of you as hostile, hypocritical and contemptible. I realize it is always a pain to deal with people's poor perception of a group you are affiliated with, but fighting against such perceptions is part of what this is all about. This lack of faith also makes any good impressions and understanding of your group from helping in the discussion as well. It is even possible that by helping you to see those strengths your religion and to better understand how this group differs from others will only improve your faith in your religion. All this assumes that we are not talking about a religion of one person. We do have quite a few of those here.
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Last edited by mitchellmckain on Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| (Q) |
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:33 am Post subject: |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 1561
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| mitchellmckain wrote: |
| I say that people can read the Bible for themselves and make up their own mind, because that is what I will do.[ |
Unless of course, you're the children of Christian parents and are told what to think about the bible. |
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