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| brahmanandji |
 Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:14 am Post subject: An issue with non-believers |
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http://thelessromanticside.blogspot.com/2008/06/bit-of-rancour-itll-pass-though.html
In the above entry in my blog I show some irrefutable arguments that evidently swing the argument in favor of God's existence and show the inherent paradoxical behaviour of scientists who challenge the existence of God.
If you agree with me it is fine.
If you don't then please provide counter arguments.
I have edited the post to make it moderate and left out offensive words. I am also keeping the excerpts which are logically relevant to the debate while highlighting the strong argument part in it.
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For your convenience I am copying the excerpts blog entry as well:
"The wonderful arrangement and harmony of the cosmos would only originate in the plan of an almighty omniscient being; this is and remains my greatest comprehension." - Isaac Newton
I have an issue with so called atheists. They want proof that God exists. Well, the very fact that God cannot be seen means that God exists. If God could be seen as a material object, then of course we would not be seeing God. A point missed by all so called atheists. They demand for proof, but if they get it, they will not accept it.
Secondly, suppose a scientist believes that God does not exist. Then it implies that everything is random and happens by chance, rather than governed by laws. As a result, that person, if logical enough will not believe in science (because science is looking for laws and so assumes that laws do exist) and so his/her logic will fall back upon itself. Hence a scientist has no choice but to believe in God.
A seeker that reality by discarding all that is unreal. An atheist on the other hand embraces all that is unreal while in fact believing the opposite.
We may go on finding one law after another in all branches of science, but whence did these laws come? A scientist claiming that God does not exist is an especially stupid exponent of his profession.
People will go saying a thousand things. But first they must answer the questions: "From where did I come? Who is this 'I' that making all these theories about God and everything? What is this 'God' that I am trying to prove or disprove?" Without answering these questions the claims on God and Reality and Philosophy and Truth will be highly superficial.
When Richard Dawkins claims that God and religion are superfluous in today's time, it is important to realise that he is talking about a very general, populist view that the general public has about religion. It is important to prevent suicide bombings by fanatics, but equating religion to just that means taking a highly limited view of the subject and addressing it without delving into it deeply.
God is something self evident, the very reason of one's existence, the very reason of one's being. Unfortunately, people are so far removed from themselves, from their very beings, that of course doubt and shallowness result. And it is this shallowness which they ascribe to themselves, to this world, and to the idea of God. And these atheists try with all their might to prove that God that does not exist, which is very easy for them to prove with their superficial arguments because the God they are trying to disprove is equally superficial.
Last edited by brahmanandji on Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Pong |
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:10 am Post subject: Re: An issue with the non-believers and about their stupidit |
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Joined: 08 Apr 2008
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| brahmanandji wrote: |
so called atheists
so called atheists
so called atheists
so called atheists
and so called rationalists. |
OK we get the message that you're feeling frustrated & hostile.
| brahmanandji wrote: |
| it is of course pointless to even raise this issue with such people, it is pointless to get caught up in stupid arguments, because they will be totally impervious to your words, because they do not want to listen to you in the first place, because they just want to put across their point. |
...and you wish to "take on all non-believers and prove them wrong"?
You want a fight. What in you wants this? Gimme a real answer.
Equally hostile atheists will attend to you shortly... |
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| Absum! |
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| Why don't you just do your own thing and let everyone else do theirs...mm? |
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| GrowlingDog |
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:48 am Post subject: |
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Every second day or so i come to this site and i click the button "View posts since last visit" and then i scan down the list of things that might interest me.
It is usually then that at least once that i wished this "Science" forum did not even have a religion section.
The funny thing is though that in their desire to prove their religious beliefs to be true, people just seem to make the whole thing they worship and follow look even more crazy and blind to any reasonable sense of FACT. And the harder they try to convince people that they are "stupid" for not believing, the less appealing any venture to religion becomes. So, keep selling it guys, the atheists (no i'm not one) must just love it.
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| brahmanandji |
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: |
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Ok let us not get into a fight but more of a debate. So just consider the argument part of my post which brings out the hypocrisy of if a scientist does not believe in an intelligent God and yet looks for laws, symmetries and mathematical harmony in Nature. I quote myself again:
"Suppose a scientist believes that God does not exist. Then it implies that everything is random and happens by chance, rather than governed by laws. As a result, that person, if logical enough will not believe in science (because science is looking for laws and so assumes that laws do exist) and so his/her logic will fall back upon itself. Hence a scientist has no choice but to believe in God.
A seeker that reality by discarding all that is unreal. An atheist on the other hand embraces all that is unreal while in fact believing the opposite.
We may go on finding one law after another in all branches of science, but whence did these laws come? A scientist claiming that God does not exist is an especially stupid exponent of his profession. " |
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| GrowlingDog |
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| brahmanandji wrote: |
Ok let us not get into a fight but more of a debate. So just consider the argument part of my post which brings out the hypocrisy of if a scientist does not believe in an intelligent God and yet looks for laws, symmetries and mathematical harmony in Nature. I quote myself again:
"Suppose a scientist believes that God does not exist. Then it implies that everything is random and happens by chance, rather than governed by laws. As a result, that person, if logical enough will not believe in science (because science is looking for laws and so assumes that laws do exist) and so his/her logic will fall back upon itself. Hence a scientist has no choice but to believe in God.
A seeker that reality by discarding all that is unreal. An atheist on the other hand embraces all that is unreal while in fact believing the opposite.
We may go on finding one law after another in all branches of science, but whence did these laws come? A scientist claiming that God does not exist is an especially stupid exponent of his profession. " |
If anything, i thought science showed that things DON'T happen by chance OR by divine intervention but instead there is a logical and rational explanation for almost anything. Well, at least almost anything that is in the bible under "miracle" or "wrath of God". Earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, plagues, droughts and so on can be explained by science and the explanations given by religion for just the things i have mentioned are dubious at best.
However, it is the title of your post that reeks of nothing but blind faith and your ridicule of anything that does not believe, how did you put it, "Stupid", shows me that debate is the last thing on your mind.
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| Theoryofrelativity |
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: Re: An issue with the non-believers and about their stupidit |
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| brahmanandji wrote: |
| Well, the very fact that God cannot be seen means that God exists. |
Oh dear
so then
aliens
pink unicorns
fairies
and all other mythical creatures exist too, PROVEN bay the fact we cannot see them.
Do you expect to be taken seriously when you write nonsense like this? This is a science board, not 'kids r us' board.
I believe in God, and you are NOT doing me any favors posting crap like this.
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| brahmanandji |
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| GrowlingDog wrote: |
If anything, i thought science showed that things DON'T happen by chance OR by divine intervention but instead there is a logical and rational explanation for almost anything. Well, at least almost anything that is in the bible under "miracle" or "wrath of God". Earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, plagues, droughts and so on can be explained by science and the explanations given by religion for just the things i have mentioned are dubious at best.
However, it is the title of your post that reeks of nothing but blind faith and your ridicule of anything that does not believe, how did you put it, "Stupid", shows me that debate is the last thing on your mind. |
I have edited my post to leave out offensive words like stupidity. Now back to arguments.
We were not kmowledgable enough at earlier times to interprete the laws of Nature which have existed as long as Nature itself. My argument is like Newton - such great underlying mathematical harmony shows strong evidence of a highly intelligent creator. It adds weight to the belief that Nature is created by God and the patterns and mathematical forms bear God's imprint. Some scientist even believe in the theory of everything - in doing that they implicitly assume the existence of a creator who controls the universe by a single law. Are not such scientists and others who look for mathematical forms in Nature hypocritical when they deny God's existence yet search for his signatures in Nature? Why else would Nature follow such laws if an intelligent creator did not impose it? Without such intelligence it is highly likely to be completely inhomogeneous and disarrayed with no laws.
Mathematical harmony in Nature makes the existence of God much more plausible whereas absence of laws would hint towards no controller. |
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| Zitterbewegung |
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| brahmanandji wrote: |
"Suppose a scientist believes that God does not exist. Then it implies that everything is random and happens by chance, rather than governed by laws."
. " |
Wow, so your god is the master of micromanagement caring about how the grains of sand in a dune in the Sahara form this very dune rather than the adhesion between the grains of sand, the surface roughness as well as a lot of other factors. What a boring job for some all-knowing omnipotent beeing. Mmmhmmmmmm. So a god is the prerequisite for all laws? Sheesh, you are insulting the intelligence of this omnipotent devine entity.
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| brahmanandji |
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| Zitterbewegung wrote: |
| brahmanandji wrote: |
"Suppose a scientist believes that God does not exist. Then it implies that everything is random and happens by chance, rather than governed by laws."
. " |
Wow, so your god is the master of micromanagement caring about how the grains of sand in a dune in the Sahara form this very dune rather than the adhesion between the grains of sand, the surface roughness as well as a lot of other factors. What a boring job for some all-knowing omnipotent beeing. Mmmhmmmmmm. So a god is the prerequisite for all laws? Sheesh, you are insulting the intelligence of this omnipotent devine entity. |
yes if he would do some chosen recreational mathematics then he would be like an ordinary human mathematician not the extraordinary complex superbeing called God. Boredom is a feeling felt by humans and is relative to the person and circumstance. Surely an argument like boredom and insult to intelligence is not convincing enough to rule out what was also Newton's greatest comprehension.
by the way my argument was based on the mathematical harmony in nature which bears the signature of an intelligent creator. the adhesive forces are understood from fundamental forces which reaffirm the mathematical consistency which particles obey in their interaction and we do not see new unique forces for every other situation. The same laws explain everything. |
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| Zitterbewegung |
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| brahmanandji wrote: |
by the way my argument was based on the mathematical harmony in nature which bears the signature of an intelligent creator. the adhesive forces are understood from fundamental forces which reaffirm the mathematical consistency which particles obey in their interaction and we do not see new unique forces for every other situation. The same laws explain everything. |
So you want to see some creator at work?? Well, your choice but this is the same old tired stuff........we need a creator to start everything......recursive argument with arbitrary end point. You believe, I rather like to KNOW.
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| brahmanandji |
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| Zitterbewegung wrote: |
| brahmanandji wrote: |
by the way my argument was based on the mathematical harmony in nature which bears the signature of an intelligent creator. the adhesive forces are understood from fundamental forces which reaffirm the mathematical consistency which particles obey in their interaction and we do not see new unique forces for every other situation. The same laws explain everything. |
So you want to see some creator at work?? Well, your choice but this is the same old tired stuff........we need a creator to start everything......recursive argument with arbitrary end point. You believe, I rather like to KNOW. |
1) I don't want to see. I am arguing the laws of nature are strongly suggestive of an intelligent creator.
2) I am pointing out the hypocrisy of scientists who do not accept God yet look for these signatures (mathematical forms) thereby implicitly assuming God's existence. |
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| marnixR |
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:05 am Post subject: |
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if you think you see harmony in nature and the universe, then you haven't been looking close enough
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| brahmanandji |
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| marnixR wrote: |
| if you think you see harmony in nature and the universe, then you haven't been looking close enough |
If you mean the quantum world and its upredictability then also you see the unpredictability is determinable and strictly obeys the Schroedinger equation and the probability density of any complicated system would in principle be a mathematical function. There are no exceptions to the Schroedinger equation and in the classical limit gives us the classical mathematical relations. So mathematical harmony is true at all levels - small and big. A handful of fundamental mathematical laws dictates the whole big universe - too big a coincidence without intelligent design. Isn't God the most plausible answer if you logically probe this question? |
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| Carbon |
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: |
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Everyone who can see the perfection of our universe but still deny god is a fool. /A.Einstein
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