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| A thought on faith |
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| portcontrol7 |
 Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:33 am Post subject: A thought on faith |
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Hi all, new to the forum and new to the beautiful world of scientific thought. While this has probably been stated before, I'll state an observation I made about those who believe in God.
Seems to me that if one were truly to believe in God, they would dive headfirst into the world of science as it is the closest tangible way of getting to know "him". Yet they seem blissfully ignorant for the most part, wallowing in their ignorance. Why? Might it be that within their soul, for lack of a better word, they know that God doesn't exist and fear science as the destroyer of faith? So is faith in its modern form inherently a form of psychosis?
Speaking personally, I always had a sense from when I was a young church going child that there was something very wrong within the minds of those around me. Of course I didn't really know how to express it or even understand it. Now I am starting to see its full implications both personally and socially, nearly 31 years into this life.
Thanks
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| mitchellmckain |
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:11 am Post subject: Re: A thought on faith |
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| portcontrol7 wrote: |
Hi all, new to the forum and new to the beautiful world of scientific thought. While this has probably been stated before, I'll state an observation I made about those who believe in God.
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If you have an authentic interest in the sciences then you are truly welcome. My specialty is physics, especially relativity and particle physics. I look forward to discussion on these topics if you have interest in them.
| portcontrol7 wrote: |
Seems to me that if one were truly to believe in God, they would dive headfirst into the world of science as it is the closest tangible way of getting to know "him".
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Yeah! That is probably why religious people created modern science.
| portcontrol7 wrote: |
Yet they seem blissfully ignorant for the most part, wallowing in their ignorance. Why?
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This is true of the majority regardless of whether they believe in God or not. Probably because science is hard work. What amazes me is the number of atheists that like to pretend that their atheism makes them a scientist. It is pretty ridiculous.
Yeah some religous people seem to have rejected science and that is because the religion of the sheep for whom religion is just having someone tell them what to believe is easier. A lot of atheists seem to fall into this category too.
| portcontrol7 wrote: |
Might it be that within their soul, for lack of a better word, they know that God doesn't exist and fear science as the destroyer of faith? So is faith in its modern form inherently a form of psychosis?
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Psychosis is a break with reality. Thus I think the better candidate for psychosis are those who adopt a philosophy that requires them to explain the fact that most people believe differently than they do as suffering from some sort of mental illness. The truth is that their philosophy is obviously inadequate and the rational - sane thing to do is to adjust their philosophy to account for reality as it is instead of having pretend that reality is something it is not.
What reality are such people having a psychotic break from? - answer: the reality that most scientists are religious and believe in God. In their desperate effort to believe that they are right they willfully blot out the rather basic reality that religion is part of the the normal functioning of human beings. Why do they do this if they are "embracing the truth?"
| portcontrol7 wrote: |
Speaking personally, I always had a sense from when I was a young church going child that there was something very wrong within the minds of those around me. Of course I didn't really know how to express it or even understand it. Now I am starting to see its full implications both personally and socially, nearly 31 years into this life.
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Well this at least is not a break from reality. The next step however in your confrontation with reality, is to look in the mirror. There is indeed something wrong with all human beings - but.... but.... but.... how peculiar.... that is a religious feeling.
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| arkofnoah |
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| What reality are such people having a psychotic break from? - answer: the reality that most scientists are religious and believe in God. |
Most scientists are religious? According to 1998 survey by Nature, only 7.0% of scientists belief in a God, 72.2% expressed disbelief, and 20.8% is agnostic. (Source (excerpt): http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html)
Of course the number means nothing here since what majority beliefs isn't always right. I'm just pointing out the fact that in reality most scientists are atheists.
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| In their desperate effort to believe that they are right they willfully blot out the rather basic reality that religion is part of the normal functioning of human beings. Why do they do this if they are "embracing the truth?" |
You need to substantiate how "religion is part of the normal functioning of human beings". You cannot generalize just because you have subjective experience with God. Being an agnostic I find religion totally irrelevant in the normal functioning of human beings. Faith is the only valid standpoint one can argue for their religious beliefs.
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| mitchellmckain |
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:02 am Post subject: |
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Well since your link doesn't work why don't I supply my own:
http://www.physorg.com/news5785.html
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Story?id=3341576&page=1
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm
Obviously the numbers vary greatly depending on what study you look at, but whichever are more accurate the truth remains that there are scientists who are religious and who believe in God and pretending that these do not exist is a willful break from reality - and an attempt to stuff reality into ones (anti-)religious ideology.
| arkofnoah wrote: |
Of course the number means nothing here since what majority beliefs isn't always right. I'm just pointing out the fact that in reality most scientists are atheists.
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Let alone the majority beliefs of a minority??? LOL
No this discussion is not about who is right in their beliefs, it is about this need to distort reality in order to fit ones beliefs by suggesting the preposterous idea that people can only disagree with your beliefs if they are mentally defective. If anyone thinks that they have no beliefs which are incorrect then that is a really irrational belief.
| arkofnoah wrote: |
You need to substantiate how "religion is part of the normal functioning of human beings". You cannot generalize just because you have subjective experience with God. Being an agnostic I find religion totally irrelevant in the normal functioning of human beings. Faith is the only valid standpoint one can argue for their religious beliefs. |
This has nothing to do with any subjective experiences. It is an objective observation of humanity. Your subjective experience only speaks to a different question and that is whether religion is necessary for the normal functioning of all human beings. The life sciences is almost primarily an observational science, looking at what is not at "what should be".
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| portcontrol7 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:36 am Post subject: |
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"Religious" people created almost everything, how many people wouldn't be religious under circumstances when the alternative was often stoning or some other lovely christian, judaic of islamic staple? They also supressed scientific progress for centuries. My point is that it doesn't make sense to me that those who claim to love God, seem to have little interest in him. It seems to me that within the religious mind is a paradox in that one must love God, but not so much as to invalidate him. Religious people have a vested interest in showing their appreciation for the creation, an atheist or agnostic person can suscribe to any doctrine that they choose and live blissfully ignorant of the workings of the cosmos for example.
Non-believers aren't trying to subvert evolution, we have the enlightened and faithful to thank for that. I never claimed to be a scientist, nor did I claim that being a scientist necessarily makes one intelligent. Hard work? Reading an intro into genetics is hard work? I'm not talking about donning a lab coat, I'm talking about interest in science. In my experience many of faith avoid scienctific knowledge as if it were a deer on the highway. Sure the majority are indifferent to it, but who is hostile towards it?
Im not saying that people of faith are inherently psychotic, but that their thought process may be philosophically psychotic. Of course I'm open to being corrected here, I'm no scientist!
"There is indeed something wrong with all human beings - but.... but.... but.... how peculiar.... that is a religious feeling."
I don't understand. Something recognized but not currently understood isn't a religious feeling. It's confusion. Attributing a childs indescribable observational confusion at logical fallacies to a religious experience? I must really not be understanding what your saying here, please explain. What do you mean there is something wrong with all human beings?
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| mitchellmckain |
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| portcontrol7 wrote: |
"Religious" people created almost everything, how many people wouldn't be religious under circumstances when the alternative was often stoning or some other lovely christian, judaic of islamic staple? They also supressed scientific progress for centuries. My point is that it doesn't make sense to me that those who claim to love God, seem to have little interest in him. It seems to me that within the religious mind is a paradox in that one must love God, but not so much as to invalidate him. Religious people have a vested interest in showing their appreciation for the creation, an atheist or agnostic person can suscribe to any doctrine that they choose and live blissfully ignorant of the workings of the cosmos for example.
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Yes so many of the religious like yourself have this attitude that unless others love God in exactly the same manner and way that they love God then something something must be wrong with them. But this is not what I would call a religious sentiment or an atheist sentiment but an anti-religious sentiment. It is this sort of attitude that provides the excuses when people look for them to do horrendous things to people who do not think like they do.
| portcontrol7 wrote: |
Non-believers aren't trying to subvert evolution, we have the enlightened and faithful to thank for that.
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Subvert evolution? LOL No... think I can resonate with that. Though I would say subvert science rather than evolution, because yeah that is exactly what ID represents.... subversion of a very valuable human endeavor to find explanations for things other than "Goddidit".
| portcontrol7 wrote: |
I never claimed to be a scientist, nor did I claim that being a scientist necessarily makes one intelligent. Hard work? Reading an intro into genetics is hard work? I'm not talking about donning a lab coat, I'm talking about interest in science. In my experience many of faith avoid scienctific knowledge as if it were a deer on the highway. Sure the majority are indifferent to it, but who is hostile towards it?
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Well I am both a scientist and an educator and I am very familiar with the deer in the headlights reaction and this has nothing to do with a person's religious/philosophical convictions and everything to do with hard work. But the funny thing is that I could say exactly the same thing about religion. It is the hard work of wrapping ones head around the concepts that do not fit the patterns and uses of the mind that one has the habit of doing.
| portcontrol7 wrote: |
Im not saying that people of faith are inherently psychotic, but that their thought process may be philosophically psychotic. Of course I'm open to being corrected here, I'm no scientist!
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Exactly!  I know a lot of very rational atheists and so this psychotic break is not inherent to atheism. In fact I would say the real culprit is anti-theism or anti-religiousity which is a habit of lazy thinking that people of all sorts are prone to, where it is easier to simply think that those who percieve the world differently than you are defective rather than to make the necessary adjustments to ones thought processes to see that people simply build the ways of thinking around different premises, but more importantly that people simply have different interests, and that just because people don't share the same interests as you do does not make them inferior but only different.
| portcontrol7 wrote: |
"There is indeed something wrong with all human beings - but.... but.... but.... how peculiar.... that is a religious feeling."
I don't understand. Something recognized but not currently understood isn't a religious feeling. It's confusion. Attributing a childs indescribable observational confusion at logical fallacies to a religious experience? I must really not be understanding what your saying here, please explain. What do you mean there is something wrong with all human beings?
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Well I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. For this certainly could be an experience of a psychotic dissociative nature where one only sees something wrong with everyone else and fails to feel the most basic empathy that recognizes that other human beings are people and have worth the same as you, such as is the case for a psychopath. But yeah most non-religous who build their conception of humanity on evolution alone have no reason to think that anything would be wrong with all human beings because they don't generally have a reason to think that there is something that human beings should be.
But ironically these anti-theistic or anti-religious tendencies often give rise to this feeling that others should be like them, should think like them in a in a kind of narcisistic imagination that oneself is the measure of all that is good and true. I think this is a pathology that is a milder but related to that of the psychopath and is responsible for much of the evil in the world whether perpetrated by those with atheistic philosophies like the communists or by those who say that they are religious as in the crusades.
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| arkofnoah |
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Obviously the numbers vary greatly depending on what study you look at, but whichever are more accurate the truth remains that there are scientists who are religious and who believe in God and pretending that these do not exist is a willful break from reality - and an attempt to stuff reality into ones (anti-)religious ideology. |
Agree. This is like.......... duh?
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| Let alone the majority beliefs of a minority??? LOL |
I don't what you mean. Can you restate what is your point?
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| No this discussion is not about who is right in their beliefs, it is about this need to distort reality in order to fit ones beliefs by suggesting the preposterous idea that people can only disagree with your beliefs if they are mentally defective. If anyone thinks that they have no beliefs which are incorrect then that is a really irrational belief. |
True!! Actually I don't know where you get the idea that we are "suggesting the preposterous idea that people can only disagree with your beliefs if they are mentally defective" from. I certainly did not say that.
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| This has nothing to do with any subjective experiences. It is an objective observation of humanity. Your subjective experience only speaks to a different question and that is whether religion is necessary for the normal functioning of all human beings. The life sciences is almost primarily an observational science, looking at what is not at "what should be". |
Ok so... what's your point? Let me break down your argument:
1. This has nothing to do with any subjective experiences.
2. It is an objective observation of humanity.
You're just stating without explanation.
3. Your subjective experience only speaks to a different question and that is whether religion is necessary for the normal functioning of all human beings.
Ok so that's what subjective experience is useful for. Likewise, no explanation on why is that so.
4. The life sciences is almost primarily an observational science, looking at what is not at "what should be".
Yes life sciences is mostly an observational science.
So? What's your point? You haven't substantiate how "religion is part of the normal functioning of human beings". What happen if one does not subscribe to religious belief? The human being is dysfunctional? Might I quote what you said:
| Quote: |
| it is about this need to distort reality in order to fit ones beliefs by suggesting the preposterous idea that people can only disagree with your beliefs if they are mentally defective. |
So I must be mentally defective and psychopathic to disagree with your belief that "religion is part of the normal functioning of human beings". You take that part about religion out, you are a dysfunctional human being. I'm a dysfunctional human being by that definition, and yet you don't know anything about me other than my screen name is arkofnoah. Very very boastful claim. I have bad encounters with religious people who come up to me, and the first thing they say is that "you are going to burn in hell". That's very rude, no matter whether it is true or not.
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| portcontrol7 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| mitchellmckain wrote: |
Yes so many of the religious like yourself have this attitude that unless others love God in exactly the same manner and way that they love God then something something must be wrong with them. But this is not what I would call a religious sentiment or an atheist sentiment but an anti-religious sentiment. It is this sort of attitude that provides the excuses when people look for them to do horrendous things to people who do not think like they do.
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I'm tempted to think you might be getting very hostile in calling me religious! If you feel that someones beliefs define them, then your logic holds up. I do not, and again I never said anything is "wrong" with people of faith or anyone else for that matter, merely that their logic is not based in reality as science defines it. Belief applied to oneself rarely directly harms anyone other than its host believer. What I sensed was "wrong" with those around me as a youth, I now understand to be that they truly didn't believe in their own beliefs! I attribute this to faith in itself, not to an inherent defect in the people themselves. Perhaps I worded it poorly in my original post. They adopted a host that took control of them, much like the Brainslugs of Omicron Persei 8.
http://www.gotfuturama.com/Information/Encyc-85-Brain_Slugs/
| mitchellmckain wrote: |
Well I am both a scientist and an educator and I am very familiar with the deer in the headlights reaction and this has nothing to do with a person's religious/philosophical convictions and everything to do with hard work. But the funny thing is that I could say exactly the same thing about religion. It is the hard work of wrapping ones head around the concepts that do not fit the patterns and uses of the mind that one has the habit of doing. |
Of course it may be human nature to find new concepts that may be contradictory to our current concepts difficult to digest, faith makes this process nearly impossible. Please understand that this is not about the difficulty, its about a self defense mechanism that prevents new data from entering into the equation by the methodology of fear. Doubt is anathema to faith, and conversely a tenent of the scientific method. Ignorance is the foundation of any strong, healthy faith based belief system.
| mitchellmckain wrote: |
Exactly! I know a lot of very rational atheists and so this psychotic break is not inherent to atheism. In fact I would say the real culprit is anti-theism or anti-religiousity which is a habit of lazy thinking that people of all sorts are prone to, where it is easier to simply think that those who percieve the world differently than you are defective rather than to make the necessary adjustments to ones thought processes to see that people simply build the ways of thinking around different premises, but more importantly that people simply have different interests, and that just because people don't share the same interests as you do does not make them inferior but only different. |
Here you appear to possibly be confused Mitchell. Never did I say those that base their life around faith are inferior, thats a judgement call and demands a standard of measuring the "quality" of a human being. I've perceived the world both from a faith based philosophy to a more recent science based philosophy. One denies the validity of the other through rational thought, the other refuses to acknowledge the validity of the other! The messenger isn't being attacked in this case, but the method is. Also, one must assume that faith is a choice, not instinctual.[/img]
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"The most monstrous effect of the indoctrination of the young by religion, is not that they are mislead, but are trained to mislead themselves." - Me |
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| portcontrol7 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| mitchellmckain wrote: |
Yes so many of the religious like yourself have this attitude that unless others love God in exactly the same manner and way that they love God then something something must be wrong with them. But this is not what I would call a religious sentiment or an atheist sentiment but an anti-religious sentiment. It is this sort of attitude that provides the excuses when people look for them to do horrendous things to people who do not think like they do.
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I'm tempted to think you might be getting very hostile in calling me religious! If you feel that someones beliefs define them, then your logic holds up. I do not, and again I never said anything is "wrong" with people of faith or anyone else for that matter, merely that their logic is not based in reality as science defines it. Belief applied to oneself rarely directly harms anyone other than its host believer. What I sensed was "wrong" with those around me as a youth, I now understand to be that they truly didn't believe in their own beliefs! I attribute this to faith in itself, not to an inherent defect in the people themselves.
| portcontrol7 wrote: |
when I was a young church going child that there was something very wrong within the minds of those around me
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They adopted a host that took control of them, much like the Brainslugs of Omicron Persei 8.
http://www.gotfuturama.com/Information/Encyc-85-Brain_Slugs/
| mitchellmckain wrote: |
Well I am both a scientist and an educator and I am very familiar with the deer in the headlights reaction and this has nothing to do with a person's religious/philosophical convictions and everything to do with hard work. But the funny thing is that I could say exactly the same thing about religion. It is the hard work of wrapping ones head around the concepts that do not fit the patterns and uses of the mind that one has the habit of doing. |
Of course it may be human nature to find new concepts that may be contradictory to our current concepts difficult to digest, faith makes this process nearly impossible. Please understand that this is not about the difficulty, its about a self defense mechanism that prevents new data from entering into the equation by the methodology of fear. Doubt is anathema to faith, and conversely a tenent of the scientific method. Ignorance is the foundation of any strong, healthy faith based belief system.
| mitchellmckain wrote: |
Exactly! I know a lot of very rational atheists and so this psychotic break is not inherent to atheism. In fact I would say the real culprit is anti-theism or anti-religiousity which is a habit of lazy thinking that people of all sorts are prone to, where it is easier to simply think that those who percieve the world differently than you are defective rather than to make the necessary adjustments to ones thought processes to see that people simply build the ways of thinking around different premises, but more importantly that people simply have different interests, and that just because people don't share the same interests as you do does not make them inferior but only different. |
Here you appear to possibly be confused Mitchell. Never did I say those that base their life around faith are inferior, thats a judgement call and demands a standard of measuring the "quality" of a human being. I've perceived the world both from a faith based philosophy to a more recent science based philosophy. One denies the validity of the other through rational thought, the other refuses to acknowledge the validity of the other! The messenger isn't being attacked in this case, but the method is. Also, one must assume that faith is a choice, not instinctual.[/img][/quote]
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"The most monstrous effect of the indoctrination of the young by religion, is not that they are mislead, but are trained to mislead themselves." - Me |
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| verzen |
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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I can explain religion easily
Religion is the expanation of the unexplainable. A cop out to explain our world in a way we can understand.
It's easy to say, "God did everything"
It's much hard to find the building blocks of nature.
Religious folk are lazy and don't take the time to research. |
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition |
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| verzen wrote: |
| Religious folk are lazy and don't take the time to research. |
Really? What about all the religious scientists? Can you ask them if they don't do their job proporly because they are religious?
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| Pong |
| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| portcontrol7 wrote: |
| Im not saying that people of faith are inherently psychotic, but that their thought process may be philosophically psychotic. |
I can personally attest to this.
*Stands*
Though I am what you'd call a "strong atheist" (God is pure nonesense), many of my deepest beliefs are grounded, ultimately, in faith not reason. That is, I know these beliefs I hold to be "incorrect" and easily broken up by logical inquiry, yet I stick to them regardless. I believe, stupidly. And there is no changing that.
My values chime with these beliefs. So you could say I'd die for my beliefs. Anyway, I'm living by my values, no boast.
It is certainly Faith.
Yes in a certain light it's crazy. Cracked. A schism as in schizo. When people get caught holding contradictions they're supposed to blush and mutter, ideally change their systems so each belief fits each other belief and fits the evidence (reality) of course. My knowingly and willfully embracing these "cracks" or "holes" seems worse. I live in two realities. That which I hold that cannot reconcile with science/reason/logic I do regard as a greater reality. You can "prove" I'm deluded.
"Psychotic" suggests antisocial - which my faith is not! The very reason for my faith is just the opposite... though I am not a "Humanist" either. Exactly where my faith maps, how it works, I won't explain here. I think it's enough to point out that I never met a dog I couldn't pet, I make small children giggle, and my peers trust my opinion on matters ranging from the integrity of their dormer joists to their daughter's drug addiction. Folks don't sense something broken in Pong's psyche.
I admit to to being irrational/delusional & admit to a kind of faith that is classically religious; admit because I'm intellectually honest with myself (I like to think so), and somewhat shameless on forums.
So, Portcontrol7, I've offered living proof of your suspicions.
*sits* |
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| verzen |
| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition wrote: |
| verzen wrote: |
| Religious folk are lazy and don't take the time to research. |
Really? What about all the religious scientists? Can you ask them if they don't do their job proporly because they are religious? |
There are christian scientists who do not believe in dinosaurs... because dinosaurs were never in the bible. |
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| (Q) |
| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: Re: A thought on faith |
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| mitchellmckain wrote: |
If you have an authentic interest in the sciences then you are truly welcome. My specialty is physics, especially relativity and particle physics. I look forward to discussion on these topics if you have interest in them.
Well this at least is not a break from reality. The next step however in your confrontation with reality, is to look in the mirror. There is indeed something wrong with all human beings - but.... but.... but.... how peculiar.... that is a religious feeling. |
Yes, Mitchell, look in the mirror, and tell me why it is you can discuss the physical nature of the universe and then pretend the neurons firing in your brain are anything more than that which you look forward to discussing? |
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| free radical |
| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: Re: A thought on faith |
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| portcontrol7 wrote: |
Seems to me that if one were truly to believe in God, they would dive headfirst into the world of science as it is the closest tangible way of getting to know "him". |
Why would they dive into science instead of prayer and meditation, comparative religion studies, or some other pursuit. ? If you wish to know your girlfriend better do you dissect her? |
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