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| marnixR |
 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: "Truth" in Science |
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Forum Cosmic Wizard
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 2393
Location: Cardiff, Wales
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i just finished reading the following article in the Student BMJ and i was aghast to read that the organisation Truth in Science had sent a DVD promoting Intelligent Design to all heads of science in every secondary school in the UK
i can only hope that they did one of the following on receipt of the DVD :
1. throw it in the waste bin where it belongs
2. petition the prime minister, stating that lobbying of state schools by religious groups is not on
3. read up on the whole ID saga and teach it to students showing how and why ID (and its parent creationism) is not science
is it any surprise that atheism is becoming more militant ? so would you if you had to deal with this type of underhand tactics to undermine proper science
medics are usually not all that fussed about evolution - on the other hand, they probably realise how evolution is the underpinning of all biological and medical knowledge, so if they start becoming uneasy maybe it's time to take the threat of organised ignorance seriously
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| Harold14370 |
| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| marnixR |
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Cosmic Wizard
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
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i just happen to care that the UK doesn't go the same way as the US, where a large number of people think ID is a cool idea just because they've been misinformed throughout their education
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| Harold14370 |
| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:29 am Post subject: |
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As I understand it, you are upset that someone has sent someone else a DVD promoting their point of view? We do that all the time over here on this side of the pond. 
I think you overestimate the impact of Intelligent Design here. As far as I know it isn't taught in any of the public schools.
Don't worry about censoring ideas. If they have no merit they will die out on their own. |
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| marnixR |
| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:22 am Post subject: |
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Forum Cosmic Wizard
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Location: Cardiff, Wales
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| Harold14370 wrote: |
| If they have no merit they will die out on their own. |
not too sure about that - creationism has been around in one form or another for at least a century, and it doesn't look like it's going away any time soon
it's a bit like viruses : if you don't manage to kill them off completely, they tend to come back more vicious than before
what's unnerving is that this type of development would have been unthinkable in the UK a couple of decades ago - i find the fact that it is now in the open without blushing a worrying development
a bit like dracula not turning to dust when exposed to sunlight
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| M |
| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 26 Sep 2006
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| Quote: |
| As I understand it, you are upset that someone has sent someone else a DVD promoting their point of view? |
Expressing your point of view is a good thing. "Promoting" it, in the sense of trying to impose it on others, is in a completely different category.
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| We do that all the time over here on this side of the pond. |
I agree. And that's not a good thing, especially if it's religious or political dogma that comes under the disguise of pseudo-science.
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| If they have no merit they will die out on their own. |
Really? Surely, ignorance has no merit to the ignorant. Does that mean ignorance is on the decline?
There's no such thing as "no merit". Your disdvantage is someone else's advantage.
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| it's a bit like viruses : if you don't manage to kill them off completely, they tend to come back more vicious than before |
It's actually worse than that. Even if you were able to "kill" ignorance completely, it would still return, unless you keep fighting it. Ignorance is the default state of the human mind. |
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| Harold14370 |
| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| M wrote: |
Expressing your point of view is a good thing. "Promoting" it, in the sense of trying to impose it on others, is in a completely different category. |
What was there about the incident described (sending a DVD) that puts it into a different category?
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| I agree. And that's not a good thing, especially if it's religious or political dogma that comes under the disguise of pseudo-science. |
Freedom of speech is not a good thing? |
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| Nevyn |
| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:35 am Post subject: |
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yet another case of religious people trying to force their veiws on others, is this what a loving god would want? is all i can ask them
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| Harold14370 |
| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| Nevyn wrote: |
| yet another case of religious people trying to force their veiws on others, is this what a loving god would want? is all i can ask them |
What force is involved? |
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| Nevyn |
| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:10 am Post subject: |
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trying to get them to drop Dawinism and teach creationism. That's forcing christianity the realm of science where it does not belong
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| Harold14370 |
| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Nevyn wrote: |
| trying to get them to drop Dawinism and teach creationism. That's forcing christianity the realm of science where it does not belong |
The creationists think their ideas are scientifically valid. You disagree. What is the problem? They are no more forcing their ideas on anybody than you are.
If Streamsystems, Dr Turner or Farsight sent DVDs to the heads of science wanting their ideas taught in school, I may disagree with that, but I'm not going to get all indignant about it. |
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| marnixR |
| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Cosmic Wizard
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
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Location: Cardiff, Wales
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think "thin edge of the wedge"
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if you find this place too crowded or too confrontational, how about trying Philosophorum,
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biology without evolution is but stamp collecting |
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| scientstphilosophertheist |
| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 01 Apr 2007
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Location: "Jamerica"...When in America, Florida; when in Jamaica, St. Mary
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| Harold14370 wrote: |
| Nevyn wrote: |
| trying to get them to drop Dawinism and teach creationism. That's forcing christianity the realm of science where it does not belong |
The creationists think their ideas are scientifically valid. You disagree. What is the problem? They are no more forcing their ideas on anybody than you are.
If Streamsystems, Dr Turner or Farsight sent DVDs to the heads of science wanting their ideas taught in school, I may disagree with that, but I'm not going to get all indignant about it. |
Good point. Come on, guys, chill out. The DVDs were sent to the head dudes as a petition for a cause. It's all politics, man. Politics got evolution to be taught in schools, and politics is what's gonna get 'em out of schools, and if they get 'em out of schools, politics is what's gonna get 'em back in schools. They think they're right, and they're going to do what's necessary, so long as it isn't detrimental to others, to spread their ideas. I don't see anything wrong with that: I write letters to heads of departments a lot of times; don't see any difference between written petitions and DVD petitions. *shrug*
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| M |
| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:29 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 274
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| Quote: |
| What was there about the incident described (sending a DVD) that puts it into a different category? |
Doesn't this ring any bell? Doesn't it seem odd to you? Scientists don't go around knocking on peoples doors, wearing black suits and name tags, to disseminate their scientific theories. They don't fill your mailbox with colorful fliers to advertise their opinions. They don't bother you at home by leaving unwanted messages on your answering machine. And they don't send unrequested DVD's to school boards. That's sneaky and creepy, to say the least. In other words: A typically Christian practice of religious dissemination. That goes far beyond practicing your right to freedom of speech. Spamming boards of education has absolutely nothing to do with science.
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| Freedom of speech is not a good thing? |
It sure is. But there is a difference between expressing yourself for the purpose of expression, over bothering me in my own home with your unwanted misinformation, to sneaking that stuff into places where it doesn't belong.
Scientific ideas don't need to be advertised by pamphlets in whatever multimediatic form. Why don't those people understand that if someone is really interested in learning about their ideas (s)he will approach them. There's no need to harass everyone with unrequested information. That advertising practice is on the same level as the leaflets that fill my mailbox everyday, and the spam that fills my email inbox: A ludicrous, primitive and very annoying exploitation of "freedom of speech". I wouldn't cry a tear if "freedom of speech" would gain an addendum that requires "responsibility to respect that not everyone wants to be bothered with your crap!". |
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| Harold14370 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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M, let's put the shoe on the other foot. Your local school board has decided to include a module to teach creation theory alongside evolution. You're going to tell me you take that lying down? I think the letters, DVD's, whatever are going to be flying all over the place. Oh,yeah.
And no, freedom of speech does not need an addendum. |
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